The History thread

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OleMissCub
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The History thread

Postby OleMissCub » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:58 pm

This thread is for all of us history dorks that populate this board. In my five years here, I've noticed that there have been numerous instances where rabbit trails have appeared in threads that last for 20+ pages sometimes. These rabbit trails often are discussing points of history. So here is a thread for all that.


Balsa wrote:It was the same thing when poor southern whites (re: the majority) joined the cause of the South against the North. Most of them didn't own slaves, but it's all about aspiration. Not saying that's the only reason, but it played into one of the causes for the South being generally supported (and we can take this to a different thread if you want OMC ;) )


If that was the reason that a poor southern white joined the Confederate army, then you are talking about a minority of a minority of a minority of soldiers that had that as their reason. Confederate enlistments in the army went up like 500% when Federal troops entered into Southern states. It was a complete shock to the majority of southerners that the US Government was actually using force to resolve the conflict.

Several states seceded only after Lincoln called on those states to use THEIR militias to suppress the rebellion. You really have to understand the mindset of these people back then to understand why they would enlist. For nearly all of them, they had never been more than 10 miles from the place they were born, the loudest thing they had ever heard was a thunderclap, the largest animal they had ever seen in person was a steer. All they understand was what was around them in their immediate vicinity. These were extremely simple people, north and south.

Now, take any one of us. Could you imagine burning down your hometown or firing deadly volleys of gunfire at people you grew up with, no matter if their cause was completely contrary to anything you believe in? I'd imagine most people would say no, they couldn't.

I'd say that for Confederate soldiers, their reasons for fighting in the war were ranked as follows:

1. Loyalty to defend "their country" i.e. their home state.
2. Personal reasons i.e. Adventure and Glory/Boredom/Prestige
3. Peer pressure


Put "preserving the Union" into number one and you'd have a list for why Union soldiers fought that war.

I'm reminded of a captured Confederate soldier after Vicksburg being asked by a Union soldier, "why are you fighting this war", and his simple answer was just to say, "because you are down here."

Reasons for fighting regarding slavery, either the abolition of it or preservation of it, probably account for a very, very few amount of soldiers in that war on either side, save for the black Union troops.
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Re: The History thread

Postby Balsa » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:16 pm

Now I know this is your wheelhouse OMC, so I'm not going to dispute most of your points.

But it is not as if the Union Army simply appeared without context. Why were the political leanings of slave-owning stately people tolerated and supported before the firing of Ft. Sumter?

Is it wrong of me to think that the commoners subscribed to the racial and socioeconomic theories of these landed elite?
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Re: The History thread

Postby biittner77 » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:19 pm

Reasons for fighting regarding slavery, either the abolition of it or preservation of it, probably account for a very, very few amount of soldiers in that war on either side, save for the black Union troops.


I'll play.

Wasn't the Emancipation Proclamation made for the express reason of increasing enlistments among abolitionists?
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Re: The History thread

Postby OleMissCub » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:39 pm

biittner77 wrote:
Reasons for fighting regarding slavery, either the abolition of it or preservation of it, probably account for a very, very few amount of soldiers in that war on either side, save for the black Union troops.


I'll play.

Wasn't the Emancipation Proclamation made for the express reason of increasing enlistments among abolitionists?


I've never come across that as being a reason for the EP. If motivation of soldiers was an issue Lincoln was really concerned about, then he wouldn't have issued the EP. The EP wasn't a very popular document amongst Union soldiers at the time. There were numerous troop mutiny's over it and Lincoln lost the support of hawkish Democrats as well.

The main motivation for the EP (at least imo) concerned resources. By issuing the EP, you were depriving the South of a key resource, which was slave labor. On the flip side, many of these freed slaves could join the Union army or work in the war effort in some other capacity i.e. cooking and cleaning.
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Re: The History thread

Postby OleMissCub » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:47 pm

Balsa wrote:Now I know this is your wheelhouse OMC, so I'm not going to dispute most of your points.

But it is not as if the Union Army simply appeared without context. Why were the political leanings of slave-owning stately people tolerated and supported before the firing of Ft. Sumter?

Is it wrong of me to think that the commoners subscribed to the racial and socioeconomic theories of these landed elite?



That's not wrong at all. You are pretty much correct. The idea that blacks were inferior was pretty much an accepted notion across the entire country, north and south. Abolitionists, both before and during the war, made up a pretty small percentage of people. Most people in the north and in the south could really have cared less about blacks and their struggles at the time. They cared about their individual lives and that was pretty much it. Think about it, did working people at the time really have the luxury to sit around and think about politics? Of course not. Both your abolitionists in the north and your secessionists in the south were from the elite classes. Most secessionists came from the plantation gentry (think Ashley from Gone with the Wind) and most of your abolitionists were rich folk from New England (think Shaw in Glory).
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Re: The History thread

Postby DanzaSlap » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:27 pm

biittner77 wrote:
Reasons for fighting regarding slavery, either the abolition of it or preservation of it, probably account for a very, very few amount of soldiers in that war on either side, save for the black Union troops.


I'll play.

Wasn't the Emancipation Proclamation made for the express reason of increasing enlistments among abolitionists?


It had to do with preventing European powers from intervening. At the time, many in Europe saw the Civil War as a way of ripping America in two, especially Britain and France. Once the North abolished slavery, they couldn't be seen as supporting a slave state (i.e. -- the South).

Lincoln didn't care at all about slavery one way or the other. He cared only about preserving the Union. Once it became clear that abolition was the best way of securing that, he did it.
Push it real good.

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Re: The History thread

Postby OleMissCub » Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:25 pm

One of the amazing things about the Civil War is just the scale of the carnage. When you adjust the figures to the modern population, you can really see how staggering it was.

For example, at the one day battle of Antietam/Sharpsburg, there were 22,717 total casualties. Adjusted to the current population of the United States, that is 220,354 casualties. :shock:

Gettysburg's total casualties were 46,286. Adjusted that comes out to 448,974.

Total dead in the Civil War were 620,000. Adjusted that is 6,014,000.
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Re: The History thread

Postby laurens » Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:26 am

YES

I'm already in love with this thread. I'll be happy to provide a European history geek perspective on history before the Early Modern Period, seeing as I plan on studying that next year :wink:

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Re: The History thread

Postby hardcorecubfan » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:11 am

What will be fun is getting a perspective from a Southern perspective and a correct perspective. :-))

I am joking, just thought it was not too early to push buttons.

I love those small, behind the scenes stories like the one where the "Yankee repeater" was already in the warehouses by 1862 and the ordinance officer wouldn't release them because they would waste bullets.
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Re: The History thread

Postby Mephistopheles » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:44 pm

i should shove texan history down your throats!

/typical texan
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Re: The History thread

Postby OleMissCub » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:53 pm

Mephistopheles wrote:i should shove texan history down your throats!

/typical texan


I got no problem with Alamo love. I'd be proud of that too.
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Re: The History thread

Postby B » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:56 pm

I contribute this bit of Louisiana history.

Huey P. Long was the greatest governor ever.

At least that's what they taught us in 8th grade when we had to take LA history.
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Re: The History thread

Postby OleMissCub » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:03 pm

B wrote:I contribute this bit of Louisiana history.

Huey P. Long was the greatest governor ever.

At least that's what they taught us in 8th grade when we had to take LA history.


Indeed he might have been the best governor ever. He did a lot of good for the state. I think if he hadn't have been assassinated, he might have made a serious run at the White House.
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Re: The History thread

Postby laurens » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:14 pm

Mephistopheles wrote:i should shove texan history down your throats!

/typical texan


I'd like to learn about Texan history, actually.

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Re: The History thread

Postby tfarks » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:45 pm

Laurens wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote:i should shove texan history down your throats!

/typical texan


I'd like to learn about Texan history, actually.


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Re: The History thread

Postby Fred Hornkohl » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:49 pm

OleMissCub wrote:
B wrote:I contribute this bit of Louisiana history.

Huey P. Long was the greatest governor ever.

At least that's what they taught us in 8th grade when we had to take LA history.


Indeed he might have been the best governor ever. He did a lot of good for the state. I think if he hadn't have been assassinated, he might have made a serious run at the White House.


I've heard it suggested that his aspiration for the White House was the reason for his assassination.

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Re: The History thread

Postby B » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:54 pm

Fred Hornkohl wrote:
OleMissCub wrote:
B wrote:I contribute this bit of Louisiana history.

Huey P. Long was the greatest governor ever.

At least that's what they taught us in 8th grade when we had to take LA history.


Indeed he might have been the best governor ever. He did a lot of good for the state. I think if he hadn't have been assassinated, he might have made a serious run at the White House.


I've heard it suggested that his aspiration for the White House was the reason for his assassination.

I've seen the bullet holes
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Re: The History thread

Postby OleMissCub » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:21 pm

B wrote:
Fred Hornkohl wrote:
OleMissCub wrote:
B wrote:I contribute this bit of Louisiana history.

Huey P. Long was the greatest governor ever.

At least that's what they taught us in 8th grade when we had to take LA history.


Indeed he might have been the best governor ever. He did a lot of good for the state. I think if he hadn't have been assassinated, he might have made a serious run at the White House.


I've heard it suggested that his aspiration for the White House was the reason for his assassination.

I've seen the bullet holes


ya, Huey's bodyguards went a bit overkill with their Tommy Guns. They shot the absolute hell out of the assassin.
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Re: The History thread

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:44 pm

so far this thread looks like southerns fighting the Civil War all over


except meph, he's just fighting for Texas succession
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Re: The History thread

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:48 pm

just say slavery

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Re: The History thread

Postby Mephistopheles » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:55 pm

Laurens wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote:i should shove texan history down your throats!

/typical texan


I'd like to learn about Texan history, actually.


We'll do a lesson a day, or every few days, or whenever I feel like it.


Where to start where to start! Chronological is the best. We'll start with native americans. texas is one of the few states with a good and interesting history. it's not like montana where some white guys killed a few indians and that's it.
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Re: The History thread

Postby CubinNY » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:56 pm

Mephistopheles wrote:
Laurens wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote:i should shove texan history down your throats!

/typical texan


I'd like to learn about Texan history, actually.


We'll do a lesson a day, or every few days, or whenever I feel like it.


Where to start where to start! Chronological is the best. We'll start with native americans. texas is one of the few states with a good and interesting history. it's not like montana where some white guys killed a few indians and that's it.

Dinosaurs please.

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Re: The History thread

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:59 pm

CubinNY wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote:
Laurens wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote:i should shove texan history down your throats!

/typical texan


I'd like to learn about Texan history, actually.


We'll do a lesson a day, or every few days, or whenever I feel like it.


Where to start where to start! Chronological is the best. We'll start with native americans. texas is one of the few states with a good and interesting history. it's not like montana where some white guys killed a few indians and that's it.

Dinosaurs please.


are you implying dinosaurs and native americans weren't there are the same time?

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Re: The History thread

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:04 pm

dinosaurs are still around. hell, wagon trains still exist in north dakota for that matter.
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Re: The History thread

Postby Mephistopheles » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:05 pm

KyleJRM wrote:
CubinNY wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote:
Laurens wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote:i should shove texan history down your throats!

/typical texan


I'd like to learn about Texan history, actually.


We'll do a lesson a day, or every few days, or whenever I feel like it.


Where to start where to start! Chronological is the best. We'll start with native americans. texas is one of the few states with a good and interesting history. it's not like montana where some white guys killed a few indians and that's it.

Dinosaurs please.


are you implying dinosaurs and native americans weren't there are the same time?


guys if humans weren't around, it's not history. READ THE BIBLE
"Meph was like Mozart: When he was on point every other numbers guy was Salieri"
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