Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:35 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:
Hairyducked Idiot wrote:We're possibly the best team in the NL on paper right now. Everything is a "nice to have."

If the season started tomorrow our CF options (Baez and Szczur are pretty much it) have a combined -.6 fWAR for their careers, with one of them never having actually played the position. I think a CF is more than a nice to have at this point.


They're both a 'need'. You're very likely going to need 20+ starts outside your top 5 SP, if things aren't optimal then it might be closer to 40-45 starts. Richard and Johnson are not acceptable to handle those starts in any quantity other than 1 or 2. Wood I can be talked into as an option but 1) the team already voted with their innings in letting Richard start over him last year and 2) I'm unconvinced Wood's salary makes it to opening day. The front office has done a good job of doing what's possible to hedge against injury risk(most of their significant FA targets have been no accident in this regard: Jackson, Sanchez, Lester, Samardzija, Lackey, etc), but last year was fortunate even with an intentional effort from Theo on down to Joe. You can't be content with 5 MLB-caliber starters when you have pretty much nothing waiting in the wings to soak up innings in case of injury/ineffectiveness.

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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:25 am

I don't understand how some of you can feel so "set" with our current rotation. If Lackey gets hurt or turns out to be washed up, we are screwed. We are gonna be in the same position we were in this year, which is not having enough good pitchers to win playoff games.

Hammel and Hendricks aren't terrible or anything, but guys, we are talking about building a dynasty here. We aren't the Oakland A's. We aren't trying to just get through another year. We're trying to take over the world.
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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby jersey cubs fan » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:27 am

Cubbie Swagger wrote:I don't understand how some of you can feel so "set" with our current rotation. If Lackey gets hurt or turns out to be washed up, we are screwed. We are gonna be in the same position we were in this year, which is not having enough good pitchers to win playoff games.


didn't the Cubs win 4 playoff games this year?
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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:28 am

jersey cubs fan wrote:
Cubbie Swagger wrote:I don't understand how some of you can feel so "set" with our current rotation. If Lackey gets hurt or turns out to be washed up, we are screwed. We are gonna be in the same position we were in this year, which is not having enough good pitchers to win playoff games.


didn't the Cubs win 4 playoff games this year?

Is that what you call success?
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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby jersey cubs fan » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:29 am

Cubbie Swagger wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:
Cubbie Swagger wrote:I don't understand how some of you can feel so "set" with our current rotation. If Lackey gets hurt or turns out to be washed up, we are screwed. We are gonna be in the same position we were in this year, which is not having enough good pitchers to win playoff games.


didn't the Cubs win 4 playoff games this year?

Is that what you call success?

I would call a 97 win season and winning two rounds of playoffs a success.

I would also say that the comment was in response to the completely inaccurate statement that they did not have enough good pitchers to win playoff games, because the Cubs actually did win playoff games with those pitchers.
Tim wrote:"Hawthorne Effect". Basically, people improve their behavior if they know they're being watched. I'm a competitive cur, so having friends that are also doing it drives me to want to "win" daily/weekly challenges and such.

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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby Tim » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:33 am

Cubbie Swagger wrote:I don't understand how some of you can feel so "set" with our current rotation. If Lackey gets hurt or turns out to be washed up, we are screwed. We are gonna be in the same position we were in this year, which is not having enough good pitchers to win playoff games.

Hammel and Hendricks aren't terrible or anything, but guys, we are talking about building a dynasty here. We aren't the Oakland A's. We aren't trying to just get through another year. We're trying to take over the world.

Please compare our rotation to the WS champs.

Thanks.
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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:56 am

jersey cubs fan wrote:I would call a 97 win season and winning two rounds of playoffs a success.

I would also say that the comment was in response to the completely inaccurate statement that they did not have enough good pitchers to win playoff games, because the Cubs actually did win playoff games with those pitchers.

It might be a success comparatively speaking, but in the grand scheme of things, it is not. If winning 4 playoff games is the best this group accomplishes, it will be looked back upon as one of the greatest letdowns in MLB history, and will further solidify that the Cubs will always be doomed. Personally, I would probably hang myself from the marquee.

The fact that the Cubs won more than zero playoff games this past season is not news to me.

And Tim, I know. I'm not saying it's impossible for us to win with this rotation. I'm basically saying we don't totally know what we have. Lackey could suck, Arrieta could regress, etc. Unless you have a rotation like the Mets, there's no reason to be content.
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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby UMFan83 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:04 am

Cubbie Swagger wrote:I don't understand how some of you can feel so "set" with our current rotation. If Lackey gets hurt or turns out to be washed up, we are screwed. We are gonna be in the same position we were in this year, which is not having enough good pitchers to win playoff games.

Hammel and Hendricks aren't terrible or anything, but guys, we are talking about building a dynasty here. We aren't the Oakland A's. We aren't trying to just get through another year. We're trying to take over the world.


I'm sure there will be some NRI's brought in...Theo and co are generally pretty good at adding back end rotation depth options each year. The Cubs had a bunch last year (Jaxon, Wood, Turner, Wada, Dubront were all starting options in camp), they just all got hurt, cut or were moved to the pen). So there will likely be depth, if not all that exciting.
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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby Felix Leiter » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:07 am

Tim wrote:
Cubbie Swagger wrote:I don't understand how some of you can feel so "set" with our current rotation. If Lackey gets hurt or turns out to be washed up, we are screwed. We are gonna be in the same position we were in this year, which is not having enough good pitchers to win playoff games.

Hammel and Hendricks aren't terrible or anything, but guys, we are talking about building a dynasty here. We aren't the Oakland A's. We aren't trying to just get through another year. We're trying to take over the world.

Please compare our rotation to the WS champs.

Thanks.


OK, here goes. If our starters at the end were: Arietta, Lester, Hammel, Hendricks and Haren. Here's what KC starters did in the WS.

Volquez-3/6
Cueto-1/9
Ventura-5/3.1
Young-2/4
Volquez-2/6

Other than Cueto's complete game, the rest were OK. I know the extra pressure on Volquez but he was not lights out. Ventura was bad and Young was so-so. The Royals defense was good and certainly helped.

I want at least another starter, probably a solid #3. Trade Castro and a minor leaguer to the Mets for Matz right now.

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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby Sammy Sofa » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:07 am

Cubbie Swagger wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:
Cubbie Swagger wrote:I don't understand how some of you can feel so "set" with our current rotation. If Lackey gets hurt or turns out to be washed up, we are screwed. We are gonna be in the same position we were in this year, which is not having enough good pitchers to win playoff games.


didn't the Cubs win 4 playoff games this year?

Is that what you call success?


Yes.
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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby David » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:10 am

Cubbie Swagger wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:
Cubbie Swagger wrote:I don't understand how some of you can feel so "set" with our current rotation. If Lackey gets hurt or turns out to be washed up, we are screwed. We are gonna be in the same position we were in this year, which is not having enough good pitchers to win playoff games.


didn't the Cubs win 4 playoff games this year?

Is that what you call success?


umm you don't?
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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby David » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:17 am

oh wait this is the guy who said we needed another ace because trading for tyson ross doesn't win us a world series or something like that
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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby Little Slide Rooter » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:24 am

Cubbie Swagger wrote:I don't understand how some of you can feel so "set" with our current rotation. If Lackey gets hurt or turns out to be washed up, we are screwed. We are gonna be in the same position we were in this year, which is not having enough good pitchers to win playoff games.


Debate able. But there's little doubt that it's good enough to hang until June-July when the trade market begins to take form, and if need be, hopefully be more agressive than we were last summer.

It should also be noted that Arietta-Lester were one of the most dominant 1-2 punches in the NL, and they were on the mound for 3 of the 5 playoff games we lost.

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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby Tim » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:25 am

Cubbie Swagger wrote:And Tim, I know. I'm not saying it's impossible for us to win with this rotation. I'm basically saying we don't totally know what we have. Lackey could suck, Arrieta could regress, etc. Unless you have a rotation like the Mets, there's no reason to be content.

You could do this same thing for any rotation in baseball. You pick the Mets as the standard bearer of great rotations?

They only got 170+ innings from four guys last year, two of whom were Bartolo Colon and Jon Niese. They don't have a single guy who is a lock to pitch 200 innings for them. Unless they add someone, they're counting on a guy coming off TJS to provide significant innings for them. Literally every single guy in their projected rotation has had moderate to major injury issues. They could all, as you say with Arrieta, regress.
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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby David » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:31 am

Tim wrote:
Cubbie Swagger wrote:And Tim, I know. I'm not saying it's impossible for us to win with this rotation. I'm basically saying we don't totally know what we have. Lackey could suck, Arrieta could regress, etc. Unless you have a rotation like the Mets, there's no reason to be content.

You could do this same thing for any rotation in baseball. You pick the Mets as the standard bearer of great rotations?

They only got 170+ innings from four guys last year, two of whom were Bartolo Colon and Jon Niese. They don't have a single guy who is a lock to pitch 200 innings for them. Unless they add someone, they're counting on a guy coming off TJS to provide significant innings for them. Literally every single guy in their projected rotation has had moderate to major injury issues. They could all, as you say with Arrieta, regress.


also, i can be content with a rotation that isn't as good as the mets (mainly subjectively, since the cubs rotation was actually better statistically and will replace haren/wood/wada/richard/beeler/roach with lackey), especially when it's backed by an offense like the cubs have.

we didn't lose in the NLCS because our rotation isn't good enough. we lost because baseball and because one of the two teams was going to lose.
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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby DiceMan4221 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:41 am

The 2015 Nats want to have a chat with you, Cubbie Swagger. (Not that a single regular season outcome proves anything...let alone a dozen playoff games...so nevermind)
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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:45 am

David wrote:oh wait this is the guy who said we needed another ace because trading for tyson ross doesn't win us a world series or something like that

I did NOT say that. If you want to disagree with me on something, that's fine, but don't disagree with me on things I didn't say. I merely asked the question, "Does adding Ross or someone like that win us a WS?" Basically I was just asking if you guys would be content if adding a Ross-caliber player was our top move this offseason.

Nothing the Cubs do will be considered a success until they win a World Series. You guys know that, right? We will still be the joke of the league until we win. We've had plenty of good years. We won 97 games in 2008, and then went right back to being a joke.
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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby David » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:47 am

Cubbie Swagger wrote:
David wrote:oh wait this is the guy who said we needed another ace because trading for tyson ross doesn't win us a world series or something like that

I did NOT say that. If you want to disagree with me on something, that's fine, but don't disagree with me on things I didn't say. I merely asked the question, "Does adding Ross or someone like that win us a WS?" Basically I was just asking if you guys would be content if adding a Ross-caliber player was our top move this offseason.

Nothing the Cubs do will be considered a success until they win a World Series. You guys know that, right? We will still be the joke of the league until we win. We've had plenty of good years. We won 97 games in 2008, and then went right back to being a joke.


You know that the playoffs are a crapshoot and all we can really do to try to win a world series is to make the playoffs as often as possible, right?

And I'm pretty sure nobody who isn't a complete [expletive] moron considers the Cubs a joke right now.
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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:25 am

David wrote:You know that the playoffs are a crapshoot and all we can really do to try to win a world series is to make the playoffs as often as possible, right?

Ehhhhh, yeah. But what does that mean?

David wrote:And I'm pretty sure nobody who isn't a complete [expletive] moron considers the Cubs a joke right now.

I'm not sure if you're getting what I'm saying. Yeah, everybody knows the Cubs are good now. But, if this core of players doesn't win a WS, they will go right back to being the laughing stock of the league. Everybody will say, "See, it's never going to happen".
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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby Sammy Sofa » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:30 am

Cubbie Swagger wrote:We won 97 games in 2008, and then went right back to being a joke.


Because they were a disappointment in 2009 and then flat out stunk until 2015. Not because they didn't win a WS.
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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:33 am

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Cubbie Swagger wrote:We won 97 games in 2008, and then went right back to being a joke.


Because they were a disappointment in 2009 and then flat out stunk until 2015. Not because they didn't win a WS.

So you are implying that there is absolutely no correlation between the stigma surrounding the Cubs and our 107 year World Series drought? Come on.
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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:35 am

Why should I care about any "stigma" surrounding the Cubs?

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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby DiceMan4221 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:38 am

Cubbie Swagger wrote:
David wrote:You know that the playoffs are a crapshoot and all we can really do to try to win a world series is to make the playoffs as often as possible, right?

Ehhhhh, yeah. But what does that mean?


It means we should build a team that is good at winning a lot of baseball games instead of tailoring it to fit a made up ideal that will win playoff series.
And who, according to Showalter, best exemplifies high-buttedness? Cubs first baseman Derrek Lee. "I don’t want to say he’s got a perfect butt, but when I look at it I say, Wow."

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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby Boris » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:45 am

Stop crying about this team not winning a championship. I called 2016 in 2008. This will be the year. Buckle up. It's gonna be fun.

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Re: Sherman - Cubs (and others obv) expected to be in on Alex Gordon

Postby David » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:53 am

Hairyducked Idiot wrote:Why should I care about any "stigma" surrounding the Cubs?


thank you

if anything, that drought that i didn't experience like 80% of, adds a little intrigue. i'd rather win championships, but my desire to win a WS has just about nothing to do with eliminating the "curse" thing, outside of the cool element it would add to the narrative (i'm sure theo loves this part).

i mean, yeah, it sucks that they haven't won one in that long, i guess, but i wouldn't feel any better about the cubs had they won one in 1969 or something (or even 84). i'd almost rather have the drought than a random championship somewhere along the way there...but either way it doesn't matter much.
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