Cubs Sign Zobrist - 4/$56M

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David
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Cubs Sign Zobrist - 4/$56M

Postby David » Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:44 pm

https://twitter.com/ESPNChiCubs/status/ ... 5258875904

Don't know what my opinion is. Not really one of our positions of need so it means a lot of other moving parts and I'd have to know what that all entails.
Last edited by David on Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zobrist?

Postby davell » Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:47 pm

Would LOVE Zobrist.
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Re: Zobrist?

Postby Cubswin11 » Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:49 pm

A Zobrist signing would almost certainly mean 1 of Castro, Soler or Baez are getting traded.
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Re: Zobrist?

Postby davell » Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:55 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:A Zobrist signing would almost certainly mean 1 of Castro, Soler or Baez are getting traded.


I think it'd very likely mean Starlin. Based on Theo saying today they can't go spend on a reliever because they need to save for starting pitching, I figure we're pretty tight monetarily and some salary would need to head out to accommodate Zobrist. Unless they drop off Price or Greinke anyway.
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Re: Zobrist?

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:15 pm

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Re: Zobrist?

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:15 pm

Keep Starlin over Zobrist
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Re: Zobrist?

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:23 pm

Zobrist is terrific, but unless payroll is going to 160 million I'm not sure he's a very good use of resources, given there are currently three guys in the hunt for time at 2B.

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Re: Zobrist?

Postby davell » Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:25 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:Zobrist is terrific, but unless payroll is going to 160 million I'm not sure he's a very good use of resources, given there are currently three guys in the hunt for time at 2B.


If Javy and Starlin wound up being dealt, it'd make sense.
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Re: Zobrist?

Postby David » Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:36 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:Zobrist is terrific, but unless payroll is going to 160 million I'm not sure he's a very good use of resources, given there are currently three guys in the hunt for time at 2B.


yeah, at first glance it would seem like doing something sub-optimal for the sake of getting Maddon his favorite toy. i'd hope that wouldn't be the case, but we've seen something similar with lester/ross.

that's not to say he's not a good player worth adding. just seems like not a great use of resources.
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Re: Zobrist?

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:05 pm

davell wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:Zobrist is terrific, but unless payroll is going to 160 million I'm not sure he's a very good use of resources, given there are currently three guys in the hunt for time at 2B.


If Javy and Starlin wound up being dealt, it'd make sense.


I mean you can work your way to an offseason where Zobrist fits in, you just kinda have to jump through some hoops to do it. If Zobrist were still available and other FA targets get snapped up then it's potentially a good option, but it's pretty down the list of contingencies for me.

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Re: Zobrist?

Postby davell » Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:21 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
davell wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:Zobrist is terrific, but unless payroll is going to 160 million I'm not sure he's a very good use of resources, given there are currently three guys in the hunt for time at 2B.


If Javy and Starlin wound up being dealt, it'd make sense.


I mean you can work your way to an offseason where Zobrist fits in, you just kinda have to jump through some hoops to do it. If Zobrist were still available and other FA targets get snapped up then it's potentially a good option, but it's pretty down the list of contingencies for me.



Won't argue that. It seems like he's going to sign relatively quick too, which would take us off him unless we make an early trade or 2.
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Re: Zobrist?

Postby Tyrant » Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:45 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
davell wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:Zobrist is terrific, but unless payroll is going to 160 million I'm not sure he's a very good use of resources, given there are currently three guys in the hunt for time at 2B.


If Javy and Starlin wound up being dealt, it'd make sense.


I mean you can work your way to an offseason where Zobrist fits in, you just kinda have to jump through some hoops to do it. If Zobrist were still available and other FA targets get snapped up then it's potentially a good option, but it's pretty down the list of contingencies for me.


i'd also worry that signing zobrist early would lead to a welington castillo situation where it becomes obvious they have to make a trade and end up losing most of their leverage.

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Re: Zobrist?

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:03 pm

Unless he's going to be our every day center fielder, I'll pass.

I'm still on the Soler and Baez bandwagon. Castro we could trade, but even then, we don't need any more infielders. I don't think it's unrealistic for Baez to have a better year in 2016 than Zobrist, and for less money.
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Re: Zobrist?

Postby StylesClash » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:52 am

Cubbie Swagger wrote:Unless he's going to be our every day center fielder, I'll pass.

I'm still on the Soler and Baez bandwagon. Castro we could trade, but even then, we don't need any more infielders. I don't think it's unrealistic for Baez to have a better year in 2016 than Zobrist, and for less money.


Baez could very easily put together a better year, power wise. But from an OBP standpoint it wouldn't shock me if Zobrist was ahead of Baez by 30 or more points. With Schwarber, Rizzo and Bryant the lineup should have enough power. So working the count and taking Walks should be the priority for the middle infield.

If Baez and Castro are both dealt Zobrist would look real nice hitting in the two hole. A Fowler, or possibly even Gardner, one/two top of the lineup punch with Zobrist would be a good combo to set the table for the middle of the lineup.

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Re: Zobrist?

Postby David » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:56 am

StylesClash wrote:
Cubbie Swagger wrote:Unless he's going to be our every day center fielder, I'll pass.

I'm still on the Soler and Baez bandwagon. Castro we could trade, but even then, we don't need any more infielders. I don't think it's unrealistic for Baez to have a better year in 2016 than Zobrist, and for less money.


Baez could very easily put together a better year, power wise. But from an OBP standpoint it wouldn't shock me if Zobrist was ahead of Baez by 30 or more points. With Schwarber, Rizzo and Bryant the lineup should have enough power. So working the count and taking Walks should be the priority for the middle infield.

If Baez and Castro are both dealt Zobrist would look real nice hitting in the two hole. A Fowler, or possibly even Gardner, one/two top of the lineup punch with Zobrist would be a good combo to set the table for the middle of the lineup.


Run production, be it by OBP or SLG, should be the priority (as far as hitting goes - because runs saved on defense count too but factoring that in can be a little more nebulous) always. You don't need to piece together a lineup that way ("oh we have enough power, let's add some OBP"). Ideally, you want guys good at both things. That said, It's far easier to be a more productive hitter as a guy who works counts well and gets on base.

Either way, though, Zobrist probably is the more productive offensive player next year.
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Re: Zobrist?

Postby StylesClash » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:39 am

David wrote:
StylesClash wrote:
Cubbie Swagger wrote:Unless he's going to be our every day center fielder, I'll pass.

I'm still on the Soler and Baez bandwagon. Castro we could trade, but even then, we don't need any more infielders. I don't think it's unrealistic for Baez to have a better year in 2016 than Zobrist, and for less money.


Baez could very easily put together a better year, power wise. But from an OBP standpoint it wouldn't shock me if Zobrist was ahead of Baez by 30 or more points. With Schwarber, Rizzo and Bryant the lineup should have enough power. So working the count and taking Walks should be the priority for the middle infield.

If Baez and Castro are both dealt Zobrist would look real nice hitting in the two hole. A Fowler, or possibly even Gardner, one/two top of the lineup punch with Zobrist would be a good combo to set the table for the middle of the lineup.


Run production, be it by OBP or SLG, should be the priority (as far as hitting goes - because runs saved on defense count too but factoring that in can be a little more nebulous) always. You don't need to piece together a lineup that way ("oh we have enough power, let's add some OBP"). Ideally, you want guys good at both things. That said, It's far easier to be a more productive hitter as a guy who works counts well and gets on base.

Either way, though, Zobrist probably is the more productive offensive player next year.


Obviously we'd all love a lineup filled with players that are adept in taking walks and hitting for power. But that's not realistic to expect from every position.

So considering we have three power bats in the middle of the lineup I'd prefer to focus on having two hitters at the top of the lineup who are adept at working the count at putting up high OBP's. Zobrist would absolutely fill one of those spots.

And in case anyone forgets that a lineup full of power bats isn't necessarily the best option, remember the 2004 Cub lineup. If memory serves me correctly they led the National League in Homers. But were mid pack in runs scored. That's the perfect example of a team that could have sacrificed power in a position or two to get a player who could consistently be counted on to make the opposing pitcher work hard and take a lot of Walks.

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Re: Zobrist?

Postby David » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:01 am

StylesClash wrote:
David wrote:
StylesClash wrote:
Cubbie Swagger wrote:Unless he's going to be our every day center fielder, I'll pass.

I'm still on the Soler and Baez bandwagon. Castro we could trade, but even then, we don't need any more infielders. I don't think it's unrealistic for Baez to have a better year in 2016 than Zobrist, and for less money.


Baez could very easily put together a better year, power wise. But from an OBP standpoint it wouldn't shock me if Zobrist was ahead of Baez by 30 or more points. With Schwarber, Rizzo and Bryant the lineup should have enough power. So working the count and taking Walks should be the priority for the middle infield.

If Baez and Castro are both dealt Zobrist would look real nice hitting in the two hole. A Fowler, or possibly even Gardner, one/two top of the lineup punch with Zobrist would be a good combo to set the table for the middle of the lineup.


Run production, be it by OBP or SLG, should be the priority (as far as hitting goes - because runs saved on defense count too but factoring that in can be a little more nebulous) always. You don't need to piece together a lineup that way ("oh we have enough power, let's add some OBP"). Ideally, you want guys good at both things. That said, It's far easier to be a more productive hitter as a guy who works counts well and gets on base.

Either way, though, Zobrist probably is the more productive offensive player next year.


Obviously we'd all love a lineup filled with players that are adept in taking walks and hitting for power. But that's not realistic to expect from every position.

So considering we have three power bats in the middle of the lineup I'd prefer to focus on having two hitters at the top of the lineup who are adept at working the count at putting up high OBP's. Zobrist would absolutely fill one of those spots.


my point is that every player contributes a certain amount of value to a lineup.

player a can be responsible for x runs and player b can be responsible for y runs. it doesn't really matter how those runs are achieved. if x > y, then you'd rather have player A, even if player A contributes his number by hitting doubles and home runs and maybe not walking much or hitting for average vs. player b being an on base machine.

lineup "fit" is largely irrelevant. it's a bunch of individual guys doing things as individuals that add up to runs for the team.

sure, if all things are equal and the players are largely equivalent in terms of runs they contribute, maybe you opt for the on base guy because MAYBE that's a little more slump proof or something...but even that line of thinking is questionable IMO and has much more to do with an overall offensive philosophy than fit.
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Re: Zobrist?

Postby StylesClash » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:35 am

David wrote:
StylesClash wrote:
David wrote:
StylesClash wrote:
Cubbie Swagger wrote:Unless he's going to be our every day center fielder, I'll pass.

I'm still on the Soler and Baez bandwagon. Castro we could trade, but even then, we don't need any more infielders. I don't think it's unrealistic for Baez to have a better year in 2016 than Zobrist, and for less money.


Baez could very easily put together a better year, power wise. But from an OBP standpoint it wouldn't shock me if Zobrist was ahead of Baez by 30 or more points. With Schwarber, Rizzo and Bryant the lineup should have enough power. So working the count and taking Walks should be the priority for the middle infield.

If Baez and Castro are both dealt Zobrist would look real nice hitting in the two hole. A Fowler, or possibly even Gardner, one/two top of the lineup punch with Zobrist would be a good combo to set the table for the middle of the lineup.


Run production, be it by OBP or SLG, should be the priority (as far as hitting goes - because runs saved on defense count too but factoring that in can be a little more nebulous) always. You don't need to piece together a lineup that way ("oh we have enough power, let's add some OBP"). Ideally, you want guys good at both things. That said, It's far easier to be a more productive hitter as a guy who works counts well and gets on base.

Either way, though, Zobrist probably is the more productive offensive player next year.


Obviously we'd all love a lineup filled with players that are adept in taking walks and hitting for power. But that's not realistic to expect from every position.

So considering we have three power bats in the middle of the lineup I'd prefer to focus on having two hitters at the top of the lineup who are adept at working the count at putting up high OBP's. Zobrist would absolutely fill one of those spots.


lineup "fit" is largely irrelevant. it's a bunch of individual guys doing things as individuals that add up to runs for the team.



So you don't believe in the concept that the top of the order is meant for table setting (aka working the count and getting on base at a high rate). While the middle of the order provides the power. It seems as though you believe each hitter is their own individual entity that isn't connected at all to the rest of the lineup. I personally disagree with that concept whole heatedly.

When it comes to our lineup next season obviously its easy to get excited about having three potential 30 homer players hitting in the middle of the lineup. But if Fowler isn't brought back I see two holes at the top of the order. Russell strikes out way too much to hit at the top of the order (and his walk rate, while solid, doesn't make up for the lack of contact). Castro is too inconsistent to be relied upon in a key lineup spot.

I'm hopeful Soler's late season disciplined approach will continue into 2016. But considering how awful he was for the first several months of last season, as well as his history of injuries, I'd prefer starting Soler in the sixth spot and move him into the two hole if his Walk rate continues at the rate they ended this past season at.

While everyone is focusing on what two arms are added to the rotation, and deservedly so, I'm very curious to see who Theo will manage to replace Fowler with. Not only will this person need a solid amount of defensive range, to compensate for the lack of Corner Outfield range, but they could very possibly be expected to hit leadoff as well.

I'm no where near sold on Almora as the Center Field option of the future. So if Baez could be dealt for a rangy Center Fielder with a great eye at the plate I'd have no problem pulling the trigger on that deal (rather than Baez for a Pitcher).

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Re: Zobrist?

Postby David » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:40 am

I "believe" you get the most productive 8 guys you can and then you line them up as optimally as you can (and there are varying schools of thought on what is optimal - but something like this is probably pretty close http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/3 ... -lineup-by).

I don't believe you ever sacrifice production for fit. If the guy who you are classifying as a power guy produces more runs (I'm not talking about R or RBI here, I'm talking about how what they do at the plate - a combination of whatever their ability to get on base is and their ability to hit for extra bases - translates to scoring runs for the team) than the guy you're classifying as an on base guy, then you are better off with the former, no matter what the rest of the lineup looks like.
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Re: Zobrist?

Postby David » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:33 pm

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Re: Zobrist?

Postby toonsterwu » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:38 pm

Would seem like a lot of other moves have to happen in a short amount of time for the Cubs to land Zobrist, with Zobrist supposedly making a decision soon. Sounds like he wants more PT at 2nd as well, so that would mean a Starlin Castro move that hasn't been rumored about (unless I missed something).

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Re: Zobrist?

Postby Tim » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:39 pm

I just don't see the chain of events that leads to Zobrist making sense for us unless someone thinks he can actually play (and would want to pay) a good CF.
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Re: Zobrist?

Postby Little Slide Rooter » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:40 pm

David wrote:https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/674355748084797445


Basically, they want him for RF if Soler's traded for pitching. Which is ok for me, because I kept having horrifying visions of Swisher and his contract coming over with Shelby Miller.

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Re: Zobrist?

Postby Tim » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:42 pm

Slide Castro Slide wrote:
David wrote:https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/674355748084797445


Basically, they want him for RF if Soler's traded for pitching. Which is ok for me, because I kept having horrifying visions of Swisher and his contract coming over with Shelby Miller.

Alex Gordon makes a lot more sense for RF if we trade Soler.
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Re: Zobrist?

Postby Cubswin11 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:43 pm

Or Bryant to the OF and Zobrist for 3B
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