Todd Frazier to White Sox in three team deal

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Re: Todd Frazier to White Sox in three team deal

Postby MWV » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:50 pm

JennieGarthAlgar wrote:
minnesotacubsfan wrote:You know, it's almost like the Reds said "[expletive] it" to the division.

Thank you Theo!


I mean, what other option did they have?

Presumably, they could've taken the package the Sox sent to LA instead of pursuing a track star middle infielder who can't get on base.

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Re: Todd Frazier to White Sox in three team deal

Postby MWV » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:52 pm

bukie wrote:The White Sox strike me as the AL version of the Diamondbacks.

At glance, this seems rather spot on.

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Re: Todd Frazier to White Sox in three team deal

Postby toonsterwu » Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:52 am

I saw this on the phone earlier in the day, and I thought, this is a joke, right? A power hitting 3rd baseman with 2 years of control only got ... Peraza? Schebler? Dixon? Even with his 2nd half slump, Frazier should've gotten more than that.

This feels like a case of a team falling in love with a guy, namely Peraza. I think there's some things to like about Peraza, although I would much rather see him back at short. It made sense for the Braves to move him - Albies was a better talent coming up behind, and Simmons was entrenched. It made sense for the Dodgers to keep him there. This rebuilding is going to take a couple seasons for the Reds - they've got pitching depth, but are thin on positional assets. If Peraza could play there, he could potentially become an asset they could flip down the line for more pieces, when they are closer to being ready. That said, Cozart has the job now, although one wonders if selling Cozart now could net them some assets for the future. Don't care for Schebler. I guess ... in GAB, I could see him stroke it if he ever got extended AB's. Perhaps. Still think Winker is a better positional asset than these three, though.

As for the Dodgers return ... my thought is this -

a) I don't particularly love any of the players. Montas is a nice arm, but with enough rotation questions, and Johnson might not be a 2nd baseman,while Thompson is an upper level guy who is raw. It has more upside than what they gave up, IMO, but I'm a bit more confident that Peraza can find and hold a role in the bigs than I am about those three.

b) That said ... for a rebuilding team like the Reds, quality of asset should've led them to take that package. If they are stripping down, they can plop Micah Johnson at 2nd and see if he can stick, and they can add Montas to their plethora of arms and hope it increases their odds of having multiple arms pan out.

I know that there's people guessing that this sets the Dodgers up for a run at someone like Jose Fernandez, and while possible, I do wonder if Friedman's other purpose may be simply to build up his stockpile of young arms so that they don't have to be so heavily dependent upon FA. Montas could also conceivably slot into their pen this year and perhaps become a shutdown type of mid-inning-setup type arm.

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Re: Todd Frazier to White Sox in three team deal

Postby toonsterwu » Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:54 am

bukie wrote:The White Sox strike me as the AL version of the Diamondbacks.


I don't get this one to be quite honest. The package they gave up for Todd Frazier isn't ridiculous. Montas is a very nice piece, but his chances of staying in the rotation are debatable, and Micah Johnson might not be a 2nd baseman. Thompson is relatively raw for an upper level guy. I can understand why Dave Stewart did what he did, but that was an overpay and a bad trade. This ... doesn't seem to be the case.

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Re: Todd Frazier to White Sox in three team deal

Postby MWV » Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:27 am

toonsterwu wrote:
bukie wrote:The White Sox strike me as the AL version of the Diamondbacks.


I don't get this one to be quite honest. The package they gave up for Todd Frazier isn't ridiculous. Montas is a very nice piece, but his chances of staying in the rotation are debatable, and Micah Johnson might not be a 2nd baseman. Thompson is relatively raw for an upper level guy. I can understand why Dave Stewart did what he did, but that was an overpay and a bad trade. This ... doesn't seem to be the case.

I don't want to speak for bukie, but I was just referring to similarities in SP, 1B and CF talent. The Sox are another team (like the Dbacks) that look to be good but perhaps on the fringes of the playoff picture.

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Re: Todd Frazier to White Sox in three team deal

Postby bukie » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:59 am

toonsterwu wrote:
bukie wrote:The White Sox strike me as the AL version of the Diamondbacks.


I don't get this one to be quite honest. The package they gave up for Todd Frazier isn't ridiculous. Montas is a very nice piece, but his chances of staying in the rotation are debatable, and Micah Johnson might not be a 2nd baseman. Thompson is relatively raw for an upper level guy. I can understand why Dave Stewart did what he did, but that was an overpay and a bad trade. This ... doesn't seem to be the case.


I didn't mean the trade specifically, I meant where the Sox are now. They thought they were better than they really were last year, and now instead of continuing to build the franchise, they're selling out for a player that, while good, really still has them as 3rd banana in that division with no long term plan in sight.
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Re: Todd Frazier to White Sox in three team deal

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:12 am

That's what I thought about last season's moves, but I like what they've done this offseason. Lawrie and Frazier are neither overly expensive nor are they both going to immediately decline due to age each year in Chicago(unlike the LaRoche/Shark moves). Frazier isn't a *long* term piece, but neither are the players they gave up. If they can add a decent SP and maybe another hitter(SS or OF), they're in pretty good shape to compete in the AL Central(which might be the worst division in baseball top to bottom), plus they can build on this offseason for next year, unlike last year. It's not a complete tear down/rebuild to try to create a juggernaut, but 1) that would waste the prime years of the stars they do have and 2) their fan support is so small that they may not be able to survive such a rebuild.

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Re: Todd Frazier to White Sox in three team deal

Postby Backtobanks » Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:42 am

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:That's what I thought about last season's moves, but I like what they've done this offseason. Lawrie and Frazier are neither overly expensive nor are they both going to immediately decline due to age each year in Chicago(unlike the LaRoche/Shark moves). Frazier isn't a *long* term piece, but neither are the players they gave up. If they can add a decent SP and maybe another hitter(SS or OF), they're in pretty good shape to compete in the AL Central(which might be the worst division in baseball top to bottom), plus they can build on this offseason for next year, unlike last year. It's not a complete tear down/rebuild to try to create a juggernaut, but 1) that would waste the prime years of the stars they do have and 2) their fan support is so small that they may not be able to survive such a rebuild.


From MLBTR: After adding Todd Frazier, Bruce Levine of CBS Chicago wonders if the White Sox will grab another big bat off of the free agent market. Justin Upton and Yoenis Cespedes are potential targets for Chicago, but Alex Gordon makes the most sense for the White Sox, in Levine’s estimation.

If you add one of these three, suddenly the WS are looking pretty good. That would certainly solidify the offense to go with Sale, Quintana, and Rodon in the rotation.

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Re: Todd Frazier to White Sox in three team deal

Postby Tryptamine » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:33 am

Backtobanks wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:That's what I thought about last season's moves, but I like what they've done this offseason. Lawrie and Frazier are neither overly expensive nor are they both going to immediately decline due to age each year in Chicago(unlike the LaRoche/Shark moves). Frazier isn't a *long* term piece, but neither are the players they gave up. If they can add a decent SP and maybe another hitter(SS or OF), they're in pretty good shape to compete in the AL Central(which might be the worst division in baseball top to bottom), plus they can build on this offseason for next year, unlike last year. It's not a complete tear down/rebuild to try to create a juggernaut, but 1) that would waste the prime years of the stars they do have and 2) their fan support is so small that they may not be able to survive such a rebuild.


From MLBTR: After adding Todd Frazier, Bruce Levine of CBS Chicago wonders if the White Sox will grab another big bat off of the free agent market. Justin Upton and Yoenis Cespedes are potential targets for Chicago, but Alex Gordon makes the most sense for the White Sox, in Levine’s estimation.

If you add one of these three, suddenly the WS are looking pretty good. That would certainly solidify the offense to go with Sale, Quintana, and Rodon in the rotation.


Even if they add another bat, I still don't think they're better than MIN/KC and I'd put them just on par with CLE.

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Re: Todd Frazier to White Sox in three team deal

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:11 am

Tryptamine wrote:
Backtobanks wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:That's what I thought about last season's moves, but I like what they've done this offseason. Lawrie and Frazier are neither overly expensive nor are they both going to immediately decline due to age each year in Chicago(unlike the LaRoche/Shark moves). Frazier isn't a *long* term piece, but neither are the players they gave up. If they can add a decent SP and maybe another hitter(SS or OF), they're in pretty good shape to compete in the AL Central(which might be the worst division in baseball top to bottom), plus they can build on this offseason for next year, unlike last year. It's not a complete tear down/rebuild to try to create a juggernaut, but 1) that would waste the prime years of the stars they do have and 2) their fan support is so small that they may not be able to survive such a rebuild.


From MLBTR: After adding Todd Frazier, Bruce Levine of CBS Chicago wonders if the White Sox will grab another big bat off of the free agent market. Justin Upton and Yoenis Cespedes are potential targets for Chicago, but Alex Gordon makes the most sense for the White Sox, in Levine’s estimation.

If you add one of these three, suddenly the WS are looking pretty good. That would certainly solidify the offense to go with Sale, Quintana, and Rodon in the rotation.


Even if they add another bat, I still don't think they're better than MIN/KC and I'd put them just on par with CLE.


Minnesota I can see, but KC's present roster is like a watered down version of the 2015 Sox, some really solid players surrounded by yawning chasms of unproductivity. Fangraphs/Steamer currently has the division as:

CLE: 37.8
CWS: 33.3
DET: 30.8
MIN: 30.5
KC: 29.0

And that is with the Sox projecting to get a combined 1.3 fWAR from SS, RF, and SP. If they have the money to address two of those holes with even mediocre acquisitions, they push themselves even higher.

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Re: Todd Frazier to White Sox in three team deal

Postby jumbo » Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:04 pm

toonsterwu wrote:I could see him stroke it

Whoa!

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Re: Todd Frazier to White Sox in three team deal

Postby Little Slide Rooter » Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:19 pm

And speaking of that team across town that went in an improbable run 10 years ago-

Orioles, White Sox Reportedly Emerging As Leaders In Cespedes Market
https://http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/12/orioles-white-sox-favorites-yoenis-cespedes.html

It would make sense. If there's one art that the White Sox have mastered, it's racking up tier 2-3 free agents and trade targets while the big boys haggle over tier 1?

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Re: Todd Frazier to White Sox in three team deal

Postby Little Slide Rooter » Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:19 pm

And speaking of that team across town that went in an improbable run 10 years ago-

Orioles, White Sox Reportedly Emerging As Leaders In Cespedes Market
https://http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/12/orioles-white-sox-favorites-yoenis-cespedes.html

It would make sense. If there's one art that the White Sox have mastered, it's racking up tier 2-3 free agents and trade targets while the big boys haggle over tier 1?

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Re: Todd Frazier to White Sox in three team deal

Postby davell » Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:02 pm

The AL is a crap shoot for sure. The White Sox adding one of Cespedes or Gordon would put them firmly in the mix for a playoff spot. Although I'd guess they'd appear to be a bit on the outside of it by the numbers, without looking. They're doing all they can though, they can't just tear down like we did.
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Re: Todd Frazier to White Sox in three team deal

Postby Little Slide Rooter » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:46 pm

davell wrote:The AL is a crap shoot for sure. The White Sox adding one of Cespedes or Gordon would put them firmly in the mix for a playoff spot. Although I'd guess they'd appear to be a bit on the outside of it by the numbers, without looking. They're doing all they can though, they can't just tear down like we did.


They really have to. Cubs fans will always come back. And even in the down years, Wrigleyville draws in the come for the party, stay for the game meatheads. And their money's as good as anyone's. But the Sox don't have that luxury. And a lengthy era of the Cubs as a dominant force and the Sox toiling in obscurity could result in the Indianapolis Corn Sox before too long.


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