Western Medicine

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Cubbie Swagger
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:09 am

WrigleyField 22 wrote:I know I'm butting into your question to Sofa, but I feel like you want medicine to be an episode of House... Observational diagnosis aren't a bad thing. There doesn't have to be some smoking gun.

Lmao, House doesn't deal with things like ADHD, OCD, anxiety, and depression. Life-threatening physical ailments are an entirely different story.

There doesn't have to be a smoking gun, there just has to be at least a tiny sliver of proof. The whole chemical imbalance thing is thrown around as if it is fact, and it is absolutely not. It's just a theory. This is the problem, to me. If people were actually getting their serotonin levels tested before they are put on an SSRI, that would change everything, in my eyes.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:14 am

Actually, on a somewhat related note: The doctor I referenced earlier actually does DNA testing. It's pretty new, and not a lot of doctors do it yet. Basically, they can analyze your DNA and determine which medications might work well for you, and which are more likely to give you side effects.

It's not exactly the same as testing your current serotonin levels, but it's certainly better than simply observing symptoms or playing trial and error. If I were considering going on a medication, you bet your bleacher seats I would get that test done.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby CubinNY » Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:19 am

I'm only going to say this. Behavioral problems cannot be "fixed" with medicine alone and can treated quite successfully without medicine at all.

But "Western Medicine'" is the reason we live to 80 and not 35.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:23 am

CubinNY wrote:I'm only going to say this. Behavioral problems cannot be "fixed" with medicine alone and can treated quite successfully without medicine at all.

Booyah!

CubinNY wrote:But "Western Medicine'" is the reason we live to 80 and not 35.

Then why do they live longer in Japan and Thailand?
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:32 am

CubinNY wrote:I'm only going to say this. Behavioral problems cannot be "fixed" with medicine alone

Absolutely
CubinNY wrote:and can treated quite successfully without medicine at all.

Eeehhhhhh.. we still talking about something like ADHD?
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:06 am

WrigleyField 22 wrote:Eeehhhhhh.. we still talking about something like ADHD?

If you are implying that you think ADHD can ONLY be treated with medication, then I think you are the only person in this thread that believes that. I think you would have trouble finding a doctor that believes that.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:19 am

Cubbie Swagger wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:Eeehhhhhh.. we still talking about something like ADHD?

If you are implying that you think ADHD can ONLY be treated with medication, then I think you are the only person in this thread that believes that. I think you would have trouble finding a doctor that believes that.

It pretty much requires both unless it's like a super mild case in which case maybe it's not ADHD.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:24 am

And I say that having married a social work who specializes in schools running a program specialized for behavioral problems after having also worked in a therapeutic day school. Kids with behavioral issues almost always need medication. There may be some outliers or they can eventually adapt with proper therapy as adults, but more parents ruin their kids thinking they don't need drugs than the other way around.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:31 am

WrigleyField 22 wrote:but more parents ruin their kids thinking they don't need drugs than the other way around.

I disagree with this statement more than anything else I've read today.

One thing I will say, is that obviously children aren't always capable of taking control of their life and making the same responsible changes that an adult would be able to make. So, from that point of view, one might argue that medication might be more acceptable for children.

I stand firmly by my point, though, that it seems logical to look at diet and exercise before you give speed to your kids, or even take them to a doctor at all. It's just common sense.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:36 am

If there's a utopia that exists where kids with behavioral issues like ADHD can thrive without meds it's not the American educational system.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:37 am

WrigleyField 22 wrote:If there's a utopia that exists where kids with behavioral issues like ADHD can thrive without meds it's not the American educational system.

I wouldn't disagree with that at all, haha. But that's another rant thread. :)
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:40 am

Cubbie Swagger wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:If there's a utopia that exists where kids with behavioral issues like ADHD can thrive without meds it's not the American educational system.

I wouldn't disagree with that at all, haha. But that's another rant thread. :)

So there you go, parents, give your school age kids the meds if the doctor says they need it, you're ruining them otherwise, and you aren't trained in the proper therapeutic techniques to go therapy only.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:43 am

Also, parents don't try and self diagnosis your kid, let the professionals do it. More than likely their just an [expletive] cuz they're a kid. Might also because you're a horsefeathers parent.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:50 am

Also some kids with behaivoral issues are hopeless even with meds, but those are the psychopaths, and I mean that clinically.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:57 am

WrigleyField 22 wrote:Also some kids with behaivoral issues are hopeless even with meds, but those are the psychopaths, and I mean that clinically.

There are a [expletive] of behavioral issues that cannot be treated with medication. They haven't invented a pill to make me stop being a horsefeathering madman.

Haha, that reminds me of Charlie Sheen. Back when was in the news for the "winning" stuff and everything, he was asked about the fact that some people have suggested he might be bipolar. He goes, "So then what's the solution? Pills to make me more like them?" LMAO.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:01 am

I mean at the end of the day I guess a lot of things aren't behaivoral disorders, but kids with other disorders display behaivoral issues because those other disorder aren't properly managed with meds and therapy.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:03 am

WrigleyField 22 wrote:I mean at the end of the day I guess a lot of things aren't behaivoral disorders, but kids with other disorders display behaivoral issues because those other disorder aren't properly managed with meds and therapy.

Well, you also have to wonder how much of behavioral problems are caused by problems at home, too. Just as an example, it might be hard to pay attention at school if your parents are fighting at home or abusing you.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:06 am

Cubbie Swagger wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:I mean at the end of the day I guess a lot of things aren't behaivoral disorders, but kids with other disorders display behaivoral issues because those other disorder aren't properly managed with meds and therapy.

Well, you also have to wonder how much of behavioral problems are caused by problems at home, too. Just as an example, it might be hard to pay attention at school if your parents are fighting at home or abusing you.

Yes that's one type of kid my wife deals with. These arent kids being thrown on meds. They need a new family, but short of that they need coping mechanisms.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:09 am

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Cubbie Swagger wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:I mean at the end of the day I guess a lot of things aren't behaivoral disorders, but kids with other disorders display behaivoral issues because those other disorder aren't properly managed with meds and therapy.

Well, you also have to wonder how much of behavioral problems are caused by problems at home, too. Just as an example, it might be hard to pay attention at school if your parents are fighting at home or abusing you.

Yes that's one type of kid my wife deals with. These arent kids being thrown on meds. They need a new family, but short of that they need coping mechanisms.

They are thrown on meds sometimes. Of course ideally in those situations, they are able to receive proper treatment, whether it's some sort of counseling or therapy or whatever, but that's not always the case. Especially considering the vast majority of domestic issues remain private. My school certainly had no idea what was going on in my house growing up.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby TBS Playoffs Insider » Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:52 am

holy horsefeathers lol please never leave this forum
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:01 am

Bunts Lick Butts wrote:holy [expletive] lol please never leave this forum

I'm just hoping I get to stay. This place is pretty sweet.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby Sammy Sofa » Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:03 pm

Cubbie Swagger wrote:Mr. Sofa, I have a direct question for you.

Let's assume for a second that the chemical imbalance theory is proven fact. Let's assume kids with ADHD have different brains.

If that is the case, does it not bother you that there is no testing at all involved in the diagnosis? These drugs are prescribed based purely on observed symptoms.


Because the conditions can be diagnosed pretty well at this point via behavioral observation, which is much more affordable. I really don't want people to have to pay for things like brain scans for conditions that can be diagnosed much more simply. Look at it this way" things like brain scans are necessary to better understand the condition, but not necessary to diagnose it.

To take it one step further: Let's talk about SSRI's for a second. Like I said, more than 90% of the serotonin in the body is produced in the gut. That's a fact. So, given that fact, how can a psychiatrist say with any certainty (again, without doing any testing whatsoever) that you have a genetic chemical imbalance that causes depression? Doesn't it seem more likely that the food you're putting into your gut is to blame?


No; the serotonin in the gut is peripheral serotonin that is different than the serotonin that is used by the brain as a neurotransmitter. The serotonin in the gut is for the enteric nervous system, which runs the gastrointestinal system. Serotonin from the gut can impact things like osteoporosis and IBS, but it's not going to function like serotonin in the brain does.

Obviously, the ideal situation would be if there was affordable testing available for everything and everything, but in the meantime it's not inherently a problem to diagnose certain things through behavior and symptom observation.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby Sammy Sofa » Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:05 pm

Cubbie Swagger wrote:
CubinNY wrote:But "Western Medicine'" is the reason we live to 80 and not 35.

Then why do they live longer in Japan and Thailand?


Significant differences in diet and lifestyles.
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:54 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:Because the conditions can be diagnosed pretty well at this point via behavioral observation, which is much more affordable. I really don't want people to have to pay for things like brain scans for conditions that can be diagnosed much more simply. Look at it this way" things like brain scans are necessary to better understand the condition, but not necessary to diagnose it.

Yes, we can diagnose the symptoms easily, that's true. It's easy to tell whether or not a person is having trouble paying attention. It's not easy to figure out why, though. If there are environmental factors at play, we are literally completely sweeping them under the rug. Even if many of the people diagnosed with ADHD have a different brain, I think you would have to agree with me that there are many others that do not.

Sammy Sofa wrote:No; the serotonin in the gut is peripheral serotonin that is different than the serotonin that is used by the brain as a neurotransmitter. The serotonin in the gut is for the enteric nervous system, which runs the gastrointestinal system. Serotonin from the gut can impact things like osteoporosis and IBS, but it's not going to function like serotonin in the brain does.

Obviously, the ideal situation would be if there was affordable testing available for everything and everything, but in the meantime it's not inherently a problem to diagnose certain things through behavior and symptom observation.

I believe you are incorrect, sir. According to everything I've read, the gut and the brain work together very closely. All serotonin is a neurotransmitter. The serotonin in the gut isn't some sort of different type of serotonin. It's why they sometimes prescribe SSRI's for bowel issues. I'm pretty sure that the serotonin in the brain is originally produced in the gut.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ond-brain/
http://bodyecology.com/articles/your-gu ... -serotonin
https://www.theconnection.tv/second-brain-gut/
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Re: Western Medicine

Postby Cubbie Swagger » Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:59 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Cubbie Swagger wrote:
CubinNY wrote:But "Western Medicine'" is the reason we live to 80 and not 35.

Then why do they live longer in Japan and Thailand?


Significant differences in diet and lifestyles.

That's exactly my point. By eating better and living a healthier lifestyle, you can avoid much of the need for western medicine. People in Asia aren't very big on doctors or pills (at least not like we are) and a lot of times they rely on natural/holistic type treatments that most Americans would think is a bunch of bologna. But, somehow they live longer than us. Imagine that.
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