It’s not me, it’s Yu

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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby Cubswin11 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:15 am

17 Seconds wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:
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your questions make no horsefeathering sense. I'm not pretending like i know who they should have gotten. I'm saying that having a ton of resources to spend on 2 unknown high-quality long-term pitchers is favorable to having already spent the assets and gotten 2 huge turds.

My question makes perfect sense and you know it. They made the best possible moves with the resources and information they had with the reasonably available guys at the time of need to not only make the playoffs and get a few wins from another WS last year to adding the best possible FAs this year.

Yes they’ve been let downs this year but there’s really no realistic alternatives outside of really Monday morning quarterbacking it. Unless you were perfectly fine with punting last year and adding no best option pitchers this offseason and hoping someone else would be available via trade come this deadline.

It’s a process vs results thing mostly for me. I’m very fine with the process of the additions but the results have been lacking.


i made a post saying i wish we could have a do-over on some whiffs (and yes, i think quintana is a whiff so far), and you're basically saying "oh yeah, what moves did YOU have lined up?". i've said nothing about the process or how the trades appeared at the time. i'm saying i wish they hadn't turned out like this. you have no point. i don't know what you're doing.

What’s the do over though? The do over is not making the playoffs last year and holding on to precious Eloy and then doing what? We needed 3 pitchers last year for this year including at least one at the deadline last year for any chance to make the playoffs. We all wish these moves were better to date but we NEEEDED to make 3 moves and I think we made the best moves with what we had to use and what was available. It sucks they haven’t worked but it is what it is and we are still in a great spot if they pitch like they can.
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:43 am

17 Seconds wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:
17 Seconds wrote:
holy horsefeathers are you serious

Yes. Given who was available at the times we needed to make moves what are the trades or FA signings you’d do?

I’m not arguing to date they’ve worked out to what we wished but what are the other moves. We needed 3 starters last year at this time.


your questions make no horsefeathering sense. I'm not pretending like i know who they should have gotten. I'm saying that having a ton of resources to spend on 2 unknown high-quality long-term pitchers is favorable to having already spent the assets and gotten 2 huge turds.



Theo chose....poorly.
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Re: RE: Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby We Got The Whole 9 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:56 am

Cubswin11 wrote:
17 Seconds wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:My question makes perfect sense and you know it. They made the best possible moves with the resources and information they had with the reasonably available guys at the time of need to not only make the playoffs and get a few wins from another WS last year to adding the best possible FAs this year.

Yes they’ve been let downs this year but there’s really no realistic alternatives outside of really Monday morning quarterbacking it. Unless you were perfectly fine with punting last year and adding no best option pitchers this offseason and hoping someone else would be available via trade come this deadline.

It’s a process vs results thing mostly for me. I’m very fine with the process of the additions but the results have been lacking.


i made a post saying i wish we could have a do-over on some whiffs (and yes, i think quintana is a whiff so far), and you're basically saying "oh yeah, what moves did YOU have lined up?". i've said nothing about the process or how the trades appeared at the time. i'm saying i wish they hadn't turned out like this. you have no point. i don't know what you're doing.

What’s the do over though? The do over is not making the playoffs last year and holding on to precious Eloy and then doing what? We needed 3 pitchers last year for this year including at least one at the deadline last year for any chance to make the playoffs. We all wish these moves were better to date but we NEEEDED to make 3 moves and I think we made the best moves with what we had to use and what was available. It sucks they haven’t worked but it is what it is and we are still in a great spot if they pitch like they can.
People love to say that we should've gone for Verlander but IIRC not many on this board wanted anything to do with him
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Re: RE: Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby jersey cubs fan » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:02 am

We Got The Whole 9 wrote:People love to say that we should've gone for Verlander but IIRC not many on this board wanted anything to do with him

The leader and the voice of this board wanted him badly.
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Re: RE: Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby Cubswin11 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:04 am

jersey cubs fan wrote:
We Got The Whole 9 wrote:People love to say that we should've gone for Verlander but IIRC not many on this board wanted anything to do with him

The leader and the voice of this board wanted him badly.

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Re: RE: Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby 17 Seconds » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:16 am

We Got The Whole 9 wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:
17 Seconds wrote:
i made a post saying i wish we could have a do-over on some whiffs (and yes, i think quintana is a whiff so far), and you're basically saying "oh yeah, what moves did YOU have lined up?". i've said nothing about the process or how the trades appeared at the time. i'm saying i wish they hadn't turned out like this. you have no point. i don't know what you're doing.

What’s the do over though? The do over is not making the playoffs last year and holding on to precious Eloy and then doing what? We needed 3 pitchers last year for this year including at least one at the deadline last year for any chance to make the playoffs. We all wish these moves were better to date but we NEEEDED to make 3 moves and I think we made the best moves with what we had to use and what was available. It sucks they haven’t worked but it is what it is and we are still in a great spot if they pitch like they can.
People love to say that we should've gone for Verlander but IIRC not many on this board wanted anything to do with him


nah, there were several people who were into it, or at least open to it
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby Cubswin11 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:19 am

I certainly wouldn’t have minded him for the right cost but wasn’t crazy about him, iirc. And we clearly talked to them since we did Wilson/Avila, maybe there wasn’t a match, maybe the ask was ridiculous like Happ or Schwarber, maybe Theo and fellas didn’t like it (and I’ll give them the benefit), obviously now I’d gladly take him knowing everything we know but that’s hindsight.
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:39 am

Happ for Verlander would have been for ridiculous?
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby Cubswin11 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:39 am

Sammy Sofa wrote:Happ for Verlander would have been for ridiculous?

Imo, yes. A 22 year old top 10 pick with position versatility who was a key part of the team at the time for a 34 year old pitcher owed a lot of money yet who relatively recently was kinda not great.
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:42 am

Man, I would have done that in a heartbeat.
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby Cubswin11 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:47 am

Sammy Sofa wrote:Man, I would have done that in a heartbeat.

Verlander with the Tigers last year before the trade, fwiw.

28 starts, 3.82 ERA, 4.01 FIP, 4.41 FIP, 9.2 K/9, 3.8 BB/9, 1.2 HR/9, 33% GB rate.

The guys wasn’t exactly lights out, the Astros pixies dust got him to another level. But obviously yes knowing the level he went to after the trade I’d gladly pull the trigger for just about any non MLB pieces they wanted at the time or agreed to pay for all his salary (if that was part of it).
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby Derwood » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:47 am

There is no way anyone could have predicted that he would be as good as he was after the trade

Pre-trade: 10-8, 3.82 ERA, 1.27 WHIP, 119 ERA+
Post-trade: 5-0, 1.06 ERA, 0.64 WHIP, 376 ERA+

2018: 9-3, 1.82 ERA, 0.80 WHIP, 205 ERA+
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby 17 Seconds » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:09 am

Cubswin11 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:Man, I would have done that in a heartbeat.

Verlander with the Tigers last year before the trade, fwiw.

28 starts, 3.82 ERA, 4.01 FIP, 4.41 FIP, 9.2 K/9, 3.8 BB/9, 1.2 HR/9, 33% GB rate.

The guys wasn’t exactly lights out, the Astros pixies dust got him to another level. But obviously yes knowing the level he went to after the trade I’d gladly pull the trigger for just about any non MLB pieces they wanted at the time or agreed to pay for all his salary (if that was part of it).


he was trending the right way approaching the break, and it was well documented that his stuff had been awesome all season, even when he was struggling. you're underselling his attractiveness by just posting those stats.
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby 17 Seconds » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:11 am

Derwood wrote:There is no way anyone could have predicted that he would be as good as he was after the trade

Pre-trade: 10-8, 3.82 ERA, 1.27 WHIP, 119 ERA+
Post-trade: 5-0, 1.06 ERA, 0.64 WHIP, 376 ERA+

2018: 9-3, 1.82 ERA, 0.80 WHIP, 205 ERA+


nobody said or thought he'd be that great, and he didn't have to be. there was plenty of reason to believe he was returning to form.
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby Cubfanintheknow » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:11 am

Not the most trustworthy source. Actually, only Donald Trump would be the only person more untrustworthy, but;

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/indians-pitcher-trevor-bauer-insinuates-theres-something-fishy-going-on-with-astros-pitchers-and-mlb-rules/
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby Cubswin11 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:47 am

17 Seconds wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:Man, I would have done that in a heartbeat.

Verlander with the Tigers last year before the trade, fwiw.

28 starts, 3.82 ERA, 4.01 FIP, 4.41 FIP, 9.2 K/9, 3.8 BB/9, 1.2 HR/9, 33% GB rate.

The guys wasn’t exactly lights out, the Astros pixies dust got him to another level. But obviously yes knowing the level he went to after the trade I’d gladly pull the trigger for just about any non MLB pieces they wanted at the time or agreed to pay for all his salary (if that was part of it).


he was trending the right way approaching the break, and it was well documented that his stuff had been awesome all season, even when he was struggling. you're underselling his attractiveness by just posting those stats.

I know we are going to keep arguing in circles, but..... He was a 34 year old pitcher (who we all agree pitchers suck) who was owed ~$70 million yet at the time of the deal for the 2.5 years left on his contract and yeah his August spiked up (6 start sample) but you really want one month to be the reason to trade for that (obviously it worked out but the numbers outside of that and even including it up to that point were just kinda okay).

And his July was just meh, 3.82 ERA, 4.43 FIP, 4.61 xFIP, 8.6 K/9, 4 BB/9 so that was his trending up to the deadline, which he wasn't moved. His August he kicked ass but again, we had 20ish starts before that of meh pitching to buy in to it.

If you take out his August (again the 6 start sample to sell us) his numbers were 4.29 ERA, 4.15 FIP, 4.81 xFIP, 8.7 K/9, 4.2 BB/9 through July
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby Duke Silver » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:07 am

Can’t whine about a Cubs’ loss... don’t worry, I’ll find something else to whine about.
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby 17 Seconds » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:40 am

Duke Silver wrote:Can’t whine about a Cubs’ loss... don’t worry, I’ll find something else to whine about.


haha when did you become such a dick? it's insane how personally you take any little negativity towards the cubs. i didn't "find" something to be bummed out about with darvish, it horsefeathering hit us all right in the face.
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby Cubswin11 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:54 am

I am almost certain acquiring Verlander would've put us over the LT last year as well if we took on most of his prorated money for the year, his aav is $25.7 so his hit to us last year would've been $12ish million if acquired in August, a little more if in July. We can argue the LT really doesn't matter because the owners can afford it but they operate as if it matters, especially when it comes to repeat offending and the 2019 offseason for Bryce and others.

I think we stayed under the 2017 LT threshold by only a few million.
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby 17 Seconds » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:01 am

Cubswin11 wrote:I am almost certain acquiring Verlander would've put us over the LT last year as well if we took on most of his prorated money for the year, his aav is $25.7 so his hit to us last year would've been $12ish million if acquired in August, a little more if in July. We can argue the LT really doesn't matter because the owners can afford it but they operate as if it matters, especially when it comes to repeat offending and the 2019 offseason for Bryce and others.


what is the point of this revisionism? you yourself wanted him

Cubswin11 wrote:
Derwood wrote:Any chance we trade for Verlander?

He's def be on my short list


Cubswin11 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:I'm kinda surprised anyone is a fan of this potential move; Verlander is old as horsefeathers, was awesome again last year, but just OK the two years prior, and now kinda sucks. Yay?

Under the assumption Archer/Stroman aren't available outside of a godfather offer and Gray requires Eloy+ I'm all just for using our money and like Caritini and Jeimer to grab a pitcher who should have elite stuff (at least get the AL to NL bump) and at least fills a rotation spot for a year or 2.


Cubswin11 wrote:Verlander is horsefeathering awesome, horsefeathers I wish we got him
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby Cubswin11 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:06 am

17 Seconds wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:I am almost certain acquiring Verlander would've put us over the LT last year as well if we took on most of his prorated money for the year, his aav is $25.7 so his hit to us last year would've been $12ish million if acquired in August, a little more if in July. We can argue the LT really doesn't matter because the owners can afford it but they operate as if it matters, especially when it comes to repeat offending and the 2019 offseason for Bryce and others.


what is the point of this revisionism? you yourself wanted him

Cubswin11 wrote:
Derwood wrote:Any chance we trade for Verlander?

He's def be on my short list


Cubswin11 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:I'm kinda surprised anyone is a fan of this potential move; Verlander is old as horsefeathers, was awesome again last year, but just OK the two years prior, and now kinda sucks. Yay?

Under the assumption Archer/Stroman aren't available outside of a godfather offer and Gray requires Eloy+ I'm all just for using our money and like Caritini and Jeimer to grab a pitcher who should have elite stuff (at least get the AL to NL bump) and at least fills a rotation spot for a year or 2.


Cubswin11 wrote:Verlander is horsefeathering awesome, horsefeathers I wish we got him

I probably wasn't aware of the money/LT hit he had and I wasn't overly against him to begin with. I also assumed we could get him cheaply (Caritni and Jeimer) and also just assumed Q wasn't available to us (who fills the rotation for a year or 2+ and had elite stuff and the AL to NL bump!). And that awesome comment maybe came when he got hot in August because that probably was made in the trade thread to the Astros???

It's funny Sofa and I are on the other end of this now, lol. And I hate myself for ever liking Archer, stupid me.

Those comments also didn't have the foresight of seeing how depressed the SP FA market would be. Darvish was in line for a Lester or better deal at the time.
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:03 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:I've got all the resolve a sponge
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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby jersey cubs fan » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:11 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:I've got all the resolve a sponge

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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:14 pm

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Re: It’s not me, it’s Yu

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:55 pm

I was a fan of getting Verlander in that I thought he'd be better than his pre-trade performance, but given the contract and his age the player cost was steep. Verlander was never either/or with Quintana(if he was, I'd take Quintana) since those rumors persisted through August, and even if Darvish is actually dead instead of having a Kershawian run of health this year, you can still use position player excess to trade for a SP that has 2019+ expectations that are not terribly different than 37 year old Verlander at a much lower salary.

In other words, if you had asked me last August, again in December, and then again in April to pick between Verlander and Darvish for 2018 alone, I would've taken Darvish every time, and apparently rolled snake eyes on that. For 2019 and beyond, Darvish's age and the saved trade assets mean the odds of getting better performance than Verlander for those years are still very strong. So I'm bothered that they didn't trade for Verlander in the same way I'm bothered they didn't sign Daniel Murphy instead of Zobrist so 2B would've been so much stronger in 2017. Yes he's a good player and yes you can make the logic for it in hindsight, but you don't always bat 1.000.
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