General Cubs Chit-Chat

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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby Cubswin11 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:39 pm

Bobson Dugnutt wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:
Bobson Dugnutt wrote:eh, that's kind of an obnoxious tone. it's been pretty much exactly one full season since he's come to the cubs. he's been worth 2.6 WAR in that full season. relative to his history where he was pretty consistently hovering around 5 WAR per year, it's fair to have some level of disappointment in what he's been for the cubs, particularly this season.

A little disappointed sure, he can bet better. But to act like he’s been no good at all and a complete bum like a huge chunk of the fan base has acted is equally obnoxious and out of line.


is that happening here? i know brett wasn't speaking about here, but i don't really care what the twitter idiots and everyone's uncle think about quintana. he's been fine. but, given his track record, age, stuff, and health, he really should be the best performer on this staff. instead, this year, he's been less valuable than pedro strop and as valuable as cishek. my disappointment is always going to be relative to my super high, but i think reasonable, expectations for him. i want him to go back to being a super stud.

I’ve definitely seen that sentiment here, not as bad or over the top or as prevalent as twitter and social media but I’ve seen it here.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby Duke Silver » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:43 pm

Obviously I'd rather he pitched better and deeper into games. But, hell, Jake was done by the end of the season in 2015, too. He used everything he had left in the tank in the Wild Card Game and had nothing left and wasn't effective in the NLDS and NLCS.

I'd much rather have Q giving us 6 quality innings in games we win than something like what is going on in Cleveland with Trevor Bauer, who is pitching like the best pitcher in the league, while the Indians have only went 10-9 in his starts and using him for 110 pitches every game.

Keep him fresh and hope he starts pitching like he usually does.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby Bertz » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:11 pm

I think we need to differentiate between Q in '17 and Q in '18. In '17 he was exactly what he's always been and if that was disappointing it's really on you for having crazy expectations.

Q in '18 is a totally different story. I haven't seen anything that makes me think he's irreparably broken, but the fact is that he has kind of sucked.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:11 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:
Bobson Dugnutt wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:A little disappointed sure, he can bet better. But to act like he’s been no good at all and a complete bum like a huge chunk of the fan base has acted is equally obnoxious and out of line.


is that happening here? i know brett wasn't speaking about here, but i don't really care what the twitter idiots and everyone's uncle think about quintana. he's been fine. but, given his track record, age, stuff, and health, he really should be the best performer on this staff. instead, this year, he's been less valuable than pedro strop and as valuable as cishek. my disappointment is always going to be relative to my super high, but i think reasonable, expectations for him. i want him to go back to being a super stud.

I’ve definitely seen that sentiment here, not as bad or over the top or as prevalent as twitter and social media but I’ve seen it here.


Sure, because to this point he's had an OK year at best, and, as pointed out, he's been a disappointment this season relative to expectations. Yeah, it's great his ERA has been trending the right direction for a while now, but it's not like anyone has to dig deep to see where he's struggled or been noticeably worse this year. Like, I'm much more encouraged if he stops walking so many guys (and he did that last night, huzzah!) and gets that walk rate and WHIP down than really ever worrying about his ERA.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby Cubswin11 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:46 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:
Bobson Dugnutt wrote:
is that happening here? i know brett wasn't speaking about here, but i don't really care what the twitter idiots and everyone's uncle think about quintana. he's been fine. but, given his track record, age, stuff, and health, he really should be the best performer on this staff. instead, this year, he's been less valuable than pedro strop and as valuable as cishek. my disappointment is always going to be relative to my super high, but i think reasonable, expectations for him. i want him to go back to being a super stud.

I’ve definitely seen that sentiment here, not as bad or over the top or as prevalent as twitter and social media but I’ve seen it here.


Sure, because to this point he's had an OK year at best, and, as pointed out, he's been a disappointment this season relative to expectations. Yeah, it's great his ERA has been trending the right direction for a while now, but it's not like anyone has to dig deep to see where he's struggled or been noticeably worse this year. Like, I'm much more encouraged if he stops walking so many guys (and he did that last night, huzzah!) and gets that walk rate and WHIP down than really ever worrying about his ERA.

He's walked 3 or less batters every game in his last 9 games and 12 of his last 14 (2 or less in 9 of those). He's largely been the same pitcher he's always been going back to late April.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby TBS Playoffs Insider » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:46 pm

out of 40 qualified NL starters, Q is 31st in xFIP ... so brett shouldn't start sucking his own popsicle yet
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby jersey cubs fan » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:52 pm

TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:out of 40 qualified NL starters, Q is 31st in xFIP ... so brett shouldn't start sucking his own popsicle yet

So there is roughly 2.5 pitchers per team who have pitched enough to qualify on each team. That kind of says a lot on its own.

The Cubs got him to give them a lot of quality innings at an affordable price, not be a shutdown ace.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:56 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:I’ve definitely seen that sentiment here, not as bad or over the top or as prevalent as twitter and social media but I’ve seen it here.


Sure, because to this point he's had an OK year at best, and, as pointed out, he's been a disappointment this season relative to expectations. Yeah, it's great his ERA has been trending the right direction for a while now, but it's not like anyone has to dig deep to see where he's struggled or been noticeably worse this year. Like, I'm much more encouraged if he stops walking so many guys (and he did that last night, huzzah!) and gets that walk rate and WHIP down than really ever worrying about his ERA.

He's walked 3 or less batters every game in his last 9 games and 12 of his last 14 (2 or less in 9 of those). He's largely been the same pitcher he's always been going back to late April.


"Largely" is pretty loaded, and arguably pretty inaccurate, in this case. No, he hasn't been terrible, but he's been significantly worse than expected/hoped. It's not like the guy's overall value is taking a pretty big hit just for kicks.

Like, I get that guys like Quintana and Rizzo aren't THAT far off from the mark for the most part, but there seems to be a disconnect between "they're basically the same guys" and then looking at their numbers and seeing they're going to be settling for a relatively pretty subpar total value even if/when they truly are back to themselves in the second half. 2.5+ fWAR Rizzo is not the same guy this year. 2+ fWAR Quintana is not the same guy this year.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:59 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:The Cubs got him to give them a lot of quality innings at an affordable price, not be a shutdown ace.


Ehhhhh...I think given what who they traded to get him, and given the type of pitcher Quintana is, I'm pretty confident they were thinking/hoping they were basically trading for a young Lester.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby Rob » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:04 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:
TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:out of 40 qualified NL starters, Q is 31st in xFIP ... so brett shouldn't start sucking his own popsicle yet

So there is roughly 2.5 pitchers per team who have pitched enough to qualify on each team. That kind of says a lot on its own.

The Cubs got him to give them a lot of quality innings at an affordable price, not be a shutdown ace.


Yup. We wanted him to be a modern day equivalent to David Wells or Chuck Finley.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby jersey cubs fan » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:08 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:The Cubs got him to give them a lot of quality innings at an affordable price, not be a shutdown ace.


Ehhhhh...I think given what who they traded to get him, and given the type of pitcher Quintana is, I'm pretty confident they were thinking/hoping they were basically trading for a young Lester.


They talked openly about the team friendly contract. They had to give up quality prospects because of how team friendly that contract was. I wasn't exactly ecstatic about the trade when it happened, because I didn't think of him as particularly great, like a young Jon Lester. But the value is in being able to pitch competently 30 times a year.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby Cubswin11 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:10 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
Sure, because to this point he's had an OK year at best, and, as pointed out, he's been a disappointment this season relative to expectations. Yeah, it's great his ERA has been trending the right direction for a while now, but it's not like anyone has to dig deep to see where he's struggled or been noticeably worse this year. Like, I'm much more encouraged if he stops walking so many guys (and he did that last night, huzzah!) and gets that walk rate and WHIP down than really ever worrying about his ERA.

He's walked 3 or less batters every game in his last 9 games and 12 of his last 14 (2 or less in 9 of those). He's largely been the same pitcher he's always been going back to late April.


"Largely" is pretty loaded, and arguably pretty inaccurate, in this case. No, he hasn't been terrible, but he's been significantly worse than expected/hoped. It's not like the guy's overall value is taking a pretty big hit just for kicks.

Like, I get that guys like Quintana and Rizzo aren't THAT far off from the mark for the most part, but there seems to be a disconnect between "they're basically the same guys" and then looking at their numbers and seeing they're going to be settling for a relatively pretty subpar total value even if/when they truly are back to themselves in the second half. 2.5+ fWAR Rizzo is not the same guy this year. 2+ fWAR Quintana is not the same guy this year.

Yeah but I mean they are largely doing a lot of the same things they've always done their whole careers (Rizzo's batted ball profile and what not, Q's velo and pitching his last ~14 starts) the results have been a bit wonky and they are just a tick off it seems (too many grounders by Rizzo, Q’s command at times).

Also with Q (yes you can do this with most pitchers) he seems to have been a little unlucky with some runs and could probably have ~8ish runs saved by just having not ridiculously horrible luck. He pitched in that horsefeathers weather game vs the Braves where nobody could pitch and we scored 10 in the 8th or whatever, he was pitching in Coors when Heyward went blind and cost him a few runs, Cishek gave up a 3 run dong vs some horsefeathers RHH when coming in for him (yes he let this guys on base but still), and I think there was one really other weird scenario I can't think of. You can't dismiss all that to just bad luck, he should be pitching better but those are some really bad luck scenarios and all pitchers have bad luck but an Gold Glove OF going blind and pitching in winter weather is an extreme.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby jersey cubs fan » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:14 pm

The Cubs had to give Tyler Chatwood 3/38 and hope that spin rate was meaningful while Quintana $30m over the same time, plus the half season they got him at 3.5m that propelled them back into the playoffs. Competent pitching is freaking expensive.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby Cubswin11 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:23 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:The Cubs had to give Tyler Chatwood 3/38 and hope that spin rate was meaningful while Quintana $30m over the same time, plus the half season they got him at 3.5m that propelled them back into the playoffs. Competent pitching is freaking expensive.

Plus Q allowed us to get Darvish (which yeah not great to this point, but getting him cheap dollar wise allowed us to spend big and fill a big hole that Q filled himself).
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:30 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:The Cubs had to give Tyler Chatwood 3/38


I wouldn't exactly say they HAD to, Bob.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby Bertz » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:39 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:I’ve definitely seen that sentiment here, not as bad or over the top or as prevalent as twitter and social media but I’ve seen it here.


Sure, because to this point he's had an OK year at best, and, as pointed out, he's been a disappointment this season relative to expectations. Yeah, it's great his ERA has been trending the right direction for a while now, but it's not like anyone has to dig deep to see where he's struggled or been noticeably worse this year. Like, I'm much more encouraged if he stops walking so many guys (and he did that last night, huzzah!) and gets that walk rate and WHIP down than really ever worrying about his ERA.

He's walked 3 or less batters every game in his last 9 games and 12 of his last 14 (2 or less in 9 of those). He's largely been the same pitcher he's always been going back to late April.


This is pretty misleading because of how few innings he's thrown. That's a 9.7% walk rate his last 9 starts, and only a 20.4% k-rate.

Quintana's been generating a good ERA because of our defense, but he's been pretty bleh. The velo's fine and he's still throwing strikes and getting swings and misses so it's probably just a slump or weird sequencing or something, but he has not been good.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby TBS Playoffs Insider » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:46 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:
TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:out of 40 qualified NL starters, Q is 31st in xFIP ... so brett shouldn't start sucking his own popsicle yet

So there is roughly 2.5 pitchers per team who have pitched enough to qualify on each team. That kind of says a lot on its own.

The Cubs got him to give them a lot of quality innings at an affordable price, not be a shutdown ace.


Oh I'm not really criticizing the deal, which i would probably do 100 times over (even if I think Q is kind of an obnoxious pitcher to watch,) I just don't think Brett's general attitude of "SEE I TOLD YOU (something) WAS GOOD WHEN YOU SAID IT WAS ACTUALLY BAD" is warranted here.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby We Got The Whole 9 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:30 pm

Should we see if we can pry Giles from Houston? Their FO is not stupid and will point to the excellent peripherals but that relationship is strained at the very least. Could be affordable.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby treebird » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:32 pm

TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:
TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:out of 40 qualified NL starters, Q is 31st in xFIP ... so brett shouldn't start sucking his own popsicle yet

So there is roughly 2.5 pitchers per team who have pitched enough to qualify on each team. That kind of says a lot on its own.

The Cubs got him to give them a lot of quality innings at an affordable price, not be a shutdown ace.


Oh I'm not really criticizing the deal, which i would probably do 100 times over (even if I think Q is kind of an obnoxious pitcher to watch,) I just don't think Brett's general attitude of "SEE I TOLD YOU (something) WAS GOOD WHEN YOU SAID IT WAS ACTUALLY BAD" is warranted here.


brett is quietly pretty terrible about stuff like this. i find him really hard to take.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby Cubswin11 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:38 pm

treebird wrote:
TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:So there is roughly 2.5 pitchers per team who have pitched enough to qualify on each team. That kind of says a lot on its own.

The Cubs got him to give them a lot of quality innings at an affordable price, not be a shutdown ace.


Oh I'm not really criticizing the deal, which i would probably do 100 times over (even if I think Q is kind of an obnoxious pitcher to watch,) I just don't think Brett's general attitude of "SEE I TOLD YOU (something) WAS GOOD WHEN YOU SAID IT WAS ACTUALLY BAD" is warranted here.


brett is quietly pretty terrible about stuff like this. i find him really hard to take.

I’m sure he’s been getting a lot of the twitter idiots telling him how bad and awful Q is all year so I don’t blame him for tweeting that. His mentions have to be a cesspool
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby TBS Playoffs Insider » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:59 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:
treebird wrote:
TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:
Oh I'm not really criticizing the deal, which i would probably do 100 times over (even if I think Q is kind of an obnoxious pitcher to watch,) I just don't think Brett's general attitude of "SEE I TOLD YOU (something) WAS GOOD WHEN YOU SAID IT WAS ACTUALLY BAD" is warranted here.


brett is quietly pretty terrible about stuff like this. i find him really hard to take.

I’m sure he’s been getting a lot of the twitter idiots telling him how bad and awful Q is all year so I don’t blame him for tweeting that. His mentions have to be a cesspool


Regardless, it's super odd how personally this guy takes criticism of Cubs players
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby Regular Show » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:26 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:The Cubs had to give Tyler Chatwood 3/38


I wouldn't exactly say they HAD to, Bob.


I don't think we sign Chatwood if we had signed that weirdo, the "Lizard King".
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby jersey cubs fan » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:32 pm

TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:
treebird wrote:
brett is quietly pretty terrible about stuff like this. i find him really hard to take.

I’m sure he’s been getting a lot of the twitter idiots telling him how bad and awful Q is all year so I don’t blame him for tweeting that. His mentions have to be a cesspool


Regardless, it's super odd how personally this guy takes criticism of Cubs players

I'm not sure what the problem is.
All of his followers tend to make hyperbolic complaints
Great players get criticized for the littlest infraction
Really it's a surprise he doesn't lash out more.
Everybody gets a little testy when their favorites players are taunted.
Even level headed types are prone to goofy comments.
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby Ding Dong Johnson » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:34 pm

you smooth son of a bitch you
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Re: General Cubs Chit-Chat

Postby 17 Seconds » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:54 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:I’ve definitely seen that sentiment here, not as bad or over the top or as prevalent as twitter and social media but I’ve seen it here.


Sure, because to this point he's had an OK year at best, and, as pointed out, he's been a disappointment this season relative to expectations. Yeah, it's great his ERA has been trending the right direction for a while now, but it's not like anyone has to dig deep to see where he's struggled or been noticeably worse this year. Like, I'm much more encouraged if he stops walking so many guys (and he did that last night, huzzah!) and gets that walk rate and WHIP down than really ever worrying about his ERA.

He's walked 3 or less batters every game in his last 9 games and 12 of his last 14 (2 or less in 9 of those). He's largely been the same pitcher he's always been going back to late April.


saying he's walked 3 or fewer batters every game is a lot less impressive when you see he's walked at least 2 in every start since april. he only has 1 more strikeout than walk in each of his last 7 starts. his flip/xfip was 4.63/4.28 in may, 4.69/4.21 in june. and 5.38/4.98 so far in july. has has .6 war in 18 starts after averaging like 4.5 over the previous 5 season.

it's dumb to say quintana has sucked or whatever (i was one of his biggest defenders on here in the second half last season), but it's pretty easy to see why there has been some disappointment. there's a significant difference between quintana's 2018 and the rest of his career.
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