It's Maddoning

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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby Derwood » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:41 pm

It's amazing to me that players with tens of thousands of lifetime at-bats (through pros, minors, college, high school, etc.) can get so screwed up in one season by one hitting coach. At what point do Rizzo and Bryant and the other dong-smiths push back against Chili-ball?
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby sneakypower » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:44 pm

the hitting philosophy set about from Maddon mustered 1 XBH in 22 innings of do or die play

unless we think that Chili is 100% to blame, our core nucleus is kind of irreparably damaged by continually keeping Maddon around
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby sneakypower » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:49 pm

Regular Show wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:I certainly get the fire Joe takes and agree with some, but I’m more for bringing him back than not. Mostly for stuff like this, he builds a culture/clubhouse like nobody else and manages the day to day minutiae better than anyone which I think is more important than anything (a drill sergeant like Girardi would ruin this team and culture). He makes guys want to be here with the atmosphere of the team he largely is responsible for overseeing. Seeing things like this makes me believe in it.



Absolutely. So many free agents want to come here now because of the culture he's built. The camaraderie and how close the players are in this clubhouse is special. I'm glad Jesse Chavez feels that way.

which is cool, but if the flip side to the coin is cavalier, laissez faire attitude to hitting, preparation that causes a budding dynasty to fall apart because everybody on the team stagnates/regresses, then what does it really matter
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby abuck1220 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:22 pm

remember in 2016 when everyone was like "the scary thing is, all these guys are like 25 and will only get better!" since then, i would say one (1) of those guys has gotten markedly better (baez, who i assume listens to nobody anyway and was not drafted by this group). everyone else has kinda stayed the same or fallen off a cliff. doesn't reflect super great on maddon.
Last edited by abuck1220 on Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:51 pm

The Cubs' team slugging numbers didn't shift THAT much between last year and this year for it to arguably be the result of much more than Bryant, Russell and Contreras being such disappointments in that regard...but still, it just seems SO glaring. And combined with FORTY games where they scored 1 or 0 runs...

This is a truly perplexing 95-win team. To also be so hapless for long stretches without power, or just scoring at all. And then the weird ongoing stuff with stranding guys in scoring position with less then 2 outs. This team should just be varying degrees of a hitting beast, even with injuries and long stretches without off days, not a conglomerate of slap-hitting and walks with the occasional power stroke. Something is wrong there.
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:08 pm

MLbers do not project to get noticeably better on average after 23 or 24. Nobody wanted to hear that post-WS woo, but it was true then and it reflects what has happened on average since.

Primes and peaks have always been younger than most fans think, and they’re getting younger.
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby treebird » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:11 pm

Hairyducked Idiot wrote:MLbers do not project to get noticeably better on average after 23 or 24. Nobody wanted to hear that post-WS woo, but it was true then and it reflects what has happened on average since.

Primes and peaks have always been younger than most fans think, and they’re getting younger.


congrats on getting to plug how smart you were for being negative immediately after the cubs won the word series. maybe go back to not posting.
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:17 pm

treebird wrote:
Hairyducked Idiot wrote:MLbers do not project to get noticeably better on average after 23 or 24. Nobody wanted to hear that post-WS woo, but it was true then and it reflects what has happened on average since.

Primes and peaks have always been younger than most fans think, and they’re getting younger.


congrats on getting to plug how smart you were for being negative immediately after the cubs won the word series. maybe go back to not posting.


That wasn’t negative.
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby davell » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:43 pm

Kyle isn't being negative there, it's kind of the truth. Did anyone really expect Rizzo or KB to actually get better? That would be damn hard to do. I DO expect KB to get back towards where he's been. He was just hurt this year obviously. Rizzo probably sticks in the 3-4 WAR range for a few years.

I'm sure most figured Russell WOULD continue to get better. He didn't and now he's not a guy we even expect to be with us at all. That was worst case scenario.

Javy? horsefeathers, was this a career year? Personally, I think the answer is no. But, it may be and that's still way better than most ever figured out of him.

Schwarber? I DID think he'd lower the K's and hit lefties better. That hasn't happened and I doubt it will going forward. Ok, so he's a 3 WAR guy. With more power still possible at least. Nothing wrong with that outcome at all.

Contreras? Ups and downs, I suspect he'll improve from 2018. But, he's not a potential MVP or anything.

Almora? Eh, he's a fine cheap guy. The thoughts of him being a 3 WAR type though is gone though. An upgrade and him being a 4th OFer seems like what should happen.

Happ? I think the K's are always going to be frustrating. But, I suspect that he's a 25+ homer guy, if he's given full season AB'S, with good discipline.

Zobrist likely takes a step back next year. But, maybe if you give him 2 days off a week, he'll stay in this realm? But, my guess is he'll decline a decent amount.

Heyward? Jesus, I guess he's a low .700 OPS guy now and won't ever be more.

Bote? Personally, I suspect he's a .750 OPS guy going forward. A guy that can give us 400 PA, that we're just fine with.

So, a better KB and Willy, a lesser Zobrist, with the rest of the guys likely canceling any progress or regression out, as a whole.

Replace Happ(trade for pitching)with Marwin Gonzalez or Eduardo Escobar. Add Harper. Fire Chili.

Best offense in the NL next year. Probably by a lot.
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:56 pm

abuck1220 wrote:remember in 2016 when everyone was like "the scary thing is, all these guys are like 25 and will only get better!" since then, i would say one (1) of those guys has gotten markedly better (baez, who i assume listens to nobody anyway and was not drafted by this group). everyone else has kinda stayed the same or fallen off a cliff. doesn't reflect super great on maddon.

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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby Fro » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:13 pm

The goal ought to be a group like the 2016 team where you have a leadoff hitter with OBP/speed who can get on base and give us options to small ball runs across the plate in these pitching duel games or when the wind is howling in at Wrigley.

I think a healthy version of this team is probably 1 player away from that.

We don't have the core to always do Epstein-era Red Sox offense and grind out runs every game by racking up the pitch count. That's been a flaw of this group since 2015. Some games they'll explode and do that but you need the flexibility to play long & small ball to win in the NL in October/November, especially with the monstrous bullpens some of these teams have.
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby soccer10k » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:16 pm

Jesse Rogers just posted a story saying Maddon is expected to keep his job next year.
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:18 pm

They can play "small ball" fine; they ranked right near the top with their team average and OBP. Lack of power was the glaring problem. It's not like they weren't getting a bunch of guys on base in a lot of those games where they only scored 0 or 1 run.

Speed is something, IMO, that should have almost next to nothing to do with their offensive approach outside of, "don't have guys as slow as Daniel Murphy."
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby UMFan83 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:22 pm

soccer10k wrote:Jesse Rogers just posted a story saying Maddon is expected to keep his job next year.


What will be more telling is if they actually hold extension conversations this winter. If he enters the season as a lame duck, his job security will be something discussed obsessively next year.
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby jersey cubs fan » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:25 pm

UMFan83 wrote:
soccer10k wrote:Jesse Rogers just posted a story saying Maddon is expected to keep his job next year.


What will be more telling is if they actually hold extension conversations this winter. If he enters the season as a lame duck, his job security will be something discussed obsessively next year.


There is no way they go into next season purposely go into next season with that distraction hanging over their head.

I think it's 60/40 "they mutually agree to part ways" in November / he gets a 2-year extension.
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby TMan92 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:41 pm

Not a surprise, but just reported Joe will be back next year. No extension.
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby Cubswin11 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:42 pm

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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby David » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:43 pm

crazy to me that he's at the end of that deal. feels like yesterday.
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:44 pm

Man, if that means Chili gets to stick around for another year, too...
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby treebird » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:44 pm

i don’t like the idea of bringing maddon back without an extension at all. he does not strike me as the type who would handle that well.

fire him (preferred) or add another year to his contract. this in-between is the worst way to go.
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby NMR1723 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:45 pm

I don't think they should part ways with Maddon just yet. Yes, he makes some serious head-scratching in-game decisions, but the Cubs also won a flipping WS just two years ago. And I'm not confident that the Cubs can hire a guy that will be any better. I'd rather not see some old school guy like Girardi lead this team and possibly change the culture inside the clubhouse. I'm not up on who is actually available, but I feel like the Cubs could do a lot worse than Crazy ass Joe.

These guys obviously like and believe in their manager. This is a good thing in my opinion.

I'm sick as horsefeathers of Chili ball though. The stats posted the other day speak volumes. Most teams have better success when he leaves. What was Mallee's problem again?
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby TBS Playoffs Insider » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:54 pm

David wrote:crazy to me that he's at the end of that deal. feels like yesterday.


yeah for real
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby cl smooth » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:58 pm

Derwood wrote:It's amazing to me that players with tens of thousands of lifetime at-bats (through pros, minors, college, high school, etc.) can get so screwed up in one season by one hitting coach.


corey patterson says hi.
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby TBS Playoffs Insider » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:59 pm

maddon is the perfect example of how none of us know just how much impact a manager can actually have.

Four years here, four 90+ win seasons! Wow!
Also we've had awesome players that whole time. Hmm.

World Series win!
Also he horsefeathers that series up and we won in spite of him.

He's not afraid of new concepts and will try different things to get value out of his players.
Also he's a Trump-loving buffoon who can't even say the right thing about domestic violence even when given multiple opportunities.

I feel like he's a good coach who players like and that is very important, especially with our roster where most of the key players have been here under Maddon and will be here in the future. Keeping that kind of culture going is a positive and possibly a very big positive.

On a macro scale (particularly visible during the playoffs for obvious reasons) he's not that great.
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Re: It's Maddoning

Postby abmillis » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:04 pm

NMR1723 wrote:Yes, he makes some serious head-scratching in-game decisions, but the Cubs also won a flipping WS just two years ago.



Reminder: those head-scratching decisions you speak of nearly cost the Cubs the World Series in Game 7 (letting Chapman pitch the 9th in Game 6, pulling Hendricks and bringing Lester in with a guy on, etc.)
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