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 Post subject: Spending
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:45 am 
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I can understand the motivation to build from the farm system, but - as a fan - I find displeasure in the fact that funds are not being used to more aggressively obtain free agents. It's not our money, but the following figures make me scratch my head (especially as a Cub fan who has NEVER seen them in the World Series):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_teams_by_payroll
Cubs are #15 in 2012 payroll

http://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/
Yet, they remain #4 in revenue.

I'm looking for entertainment. While we rebuild the farm system, I still do believe that they could've spent a bit more (even for 2-3 year contracts, going harder after Ryu/Cespedes). There needs to be more urgency to do well now, in addition to building for the future.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:52 am 
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While payroll may be down, I suspect overall baseball expenses aren't down all that much. They spent around 30M between the new Dominican baseball academy and the McDonalds across the street. On top of that, they've added a rather large number of scouts and front office people. They also made all those improvements to right field. So even if it's not showing up in the payroll, they are still spending a considerable amount of money.


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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:43 am 
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Tryptamine wrote:
While payroll may be down, I suspect overall baseball expenses aren't down all that much. They spent around 30M between the new Dominican baseball academy and the McDonalds across the street. On top of that, they've added a rather large number of scouts and front office people. They also made all those improvements to right field. So even if it's not showing up in the payroll, they are still spending a considerable amount of money.


That still doesn't address bearjuice's point as to wanting to be entertained. The second half of 2012 was unbearable to watch.


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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:52 am 
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Backtobanks wrote:
Tryptamine wrote:
While payroll may be down, I suspect overall baseball expenses aren't down all that much. They spent around 30M between the new Dominican baseball academy and the McDonalds across the street. On top of that, they've added a rather large number of scouts and front office people. They also made all those improvements to right field. So even if it's not showing up in the payroll, they are still spending a considerable amount of money.


That still doesn't address bearjuice's point as to wanting to be entertained. The second half of 2012 was unbearable to watch.


The second half was unbearable to watch when the prospects actually got to play? I would think you'd hate the 1st half a lot more. I rather enjoyed getting to watch Rizzo, BJax, Castillo etc etc get some game time.


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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:00 pm 
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bearjuice wrote:
I can understand the motivation to build from the farm system, but - as a fan - I find displeasure in the fact that funds are not being used to more aggressively obtain free agents. It's not our money, but the following figures make me scratch my head (especially as a Cub fan who has NEVER seen them in the World Series):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_teams_by_payroll
Cubs are #15 in 2012 payroll

http://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/
Yet, they remain #4 in revenue.

I'm looking for entertainment. While we rebuild the farm system, I still do believe that they could've spent a bit more (even for 2-3 year contracts, going harder after Ryu/Cespedes). There needs to be more urgency to do well now, in addition to building for the future.


That list was sorted by franchise value.

They are actually 3rd in revenue according to that.


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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:56 pm 
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If they spend just because they have the money, they will probably still be bad and then the same people will complain that they are spending all that money with no results.

The Cubs will spend.


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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:42 pm 
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It's not our fault, those other 14 teams above us are just spending like drunken sailors is all.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:57 pm 
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quick, everyone have a quality discussion until kyle sees this thread and pounces on it.

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 Post subject: Spending
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:38 pm 
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UMFan83 wrote:
quick, everyone have a quality discussion until kyle sees this thread and pounces on it.



Meh, b2b already did that, granted, probably not as effectively as Kyle would, but still.


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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:55 pm 
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UMFan83 wrote:
quick, everyone have a quality discussion until kyle sees this thread and pounces on it.


What's there to say? It's going to come down to "Spending $20 million on a McDonald's makes it okay to slash payroll," to be rebutted by "Uh-uh."


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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:23 pm 
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I'm all for the rebuild. That said, with different ownership, things could certainly be a lot different. Ask the Dodgers. The group we have running things is great and I give Ricketts credit for being smart enough to hire them. But the Dodgers are doing some renovating as well. I guess we'll see, but if Theo had been told we had the ability to carry 180 mill in a payroll, I bet things would have headed in a much different direction.


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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:35 pm 
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we have got to rebuild...i do not understand cubs fans who do not understand that this will be a bad team for another 2-3 years and then begin a complete culture change...

we tried spending on the flavor of the day...and now we're stuck thinking "how can we get the taste out of our mouths?"

i mean it's pretty simple..the front office will be flipping and switching prospects to make packages with lesser prospects to get more blue chip prospects...eventually we get our hands on a top 5 farm system for the next decade (hopefully) and THEN we slowly revert to spending like a top 5 market...during that time frame...we also keep the minor leagues with a healthy stock of young talent to compliment what will be a contending major league team...

it's going to be another long season in 2013..


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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:42 pm 
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davell wrote:
I'm all for the rebuild. That said, with different ownership, things could certainly be a lot different. Ask the Dodgers. The group we have running things is great and I give Ricketts credit for being smart enough to hire them. But the Dodgers are doing some renovating as well. I guess we'll see, but if Theo had been told we had the ability to carry 180 mill in a payroll, I bet things would have headed in a much different direction.


I don't think Epstein would have taken the job under those circumstances. He didn't want to run the Red Sox West. He wanted a different challenge because he was burned out in Boston.


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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:27 pm 
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I hear where you're coming from bearjuice but the team needed to be blown up. This year is a little different in that, while there are a few more players likely to be moved (Garza, Marmol, Soriano and DeJesus), there are more holes in the starting rotation than last year so it's likely they add a guy to a 2 or 3 year deal and add at least two starting pitchers. They will need to spend money on free agents to field a team. They won't be a lot better but I expect them to finish better.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:43 am 
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MSG T wrote:
UMFan83 wrote:
quick, everyone have a quality discussion until kyle sees this thread and pounces on it.



Meh, b2b already did that, granted, probably not as effectively as Kyle would, but still.


Nothing like insulting posts when you have nothing intelligent to say on a topic.


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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:01 am 
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Theo has openly admitted that his strategy will be to tank for several years so that he can obtain top picks in the draft. Presently, they are only going to obtain free agents that are either a) reclamation projects, b) generally undervalued, or c) can easily be flipped for prospects. My advice would be to pay more attention to the minor leagues, amateur draft, international FA, etc. for the next couple (at least) more years while Theo tries to build Rome.


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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:46 am 
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fiver wrote:
Theo has openly admitted that his strategy will be to tank for several years so that he can obtain top picks in the draft. Presently, they are only going to obtain free agents that are either a) reclamation projects, b) generally undervalued, or c) can easily be flipped for prospects. My advice would be to pay more attention to the minor leagues, amateur draft, international FA, etc. for the next couple (at least) more years while Theo tries to build Rome.


He has, eh?

Help a dude out with a quote.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:57 am 
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Iloveoldstyle wrote:
we have got to rebuild...i do not understand cubs fans who do not understand that this will be a bad team for another 2-3 years and then begin a complete culture change...


I do not understand fans who try to pretend they can't spend on the now and rebuild the system at the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:10 am 
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Don't you understand the well was poisoned????

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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:05 am 
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Backtobanks wrote:
MSG T wrote:
UMFan83 wrote:
quick, everyone have a quality discussion until kyle sees this thread and pounces on it.



Meh, b2b already did that, granted, probably not as effectively as Kyle would, but still.


Nothing like insulting posts when you have nothing intelligent to say on a topic.



OK, how's this. The minor's were left in complete disarray by the previous leadership, who you seem to have fond memories of, and Theo/Jed seem to have little alternative but to try to build up that system. Just in the last 1+ year, the Cubs have moved from somewhere in the 20's, for organizational rankings, into (or close) the top 10. Seems to me that they are moving in the right direction. Have there been missteps? Absolutely, but they are also doing something the previous leaders found nearly impossible to do. Identify the weaknesses and try to fix them, set a philosophy and follow it and determine what actually makes a good ballplayer and go get those types of players.

Have they been successful at the major league level? No, not yet and that should be obvious. Is the organization as a whole better off now than when they took over? I'd say yes and that it's really not all that close.

Lastly, what I typed wasn't insulting, it was fairly accurate. Kyle will at least make an argument then try to back it up with as many supporting (or at least what he considers supporting) facts as he can. He at least attempts to make a coherent argument, for that I'll give him credit. You're arguments are generally based around "Boy wonder sucks and doesn't know what he's doing. My evidence is that they lost 101 games."


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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:07 am 
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MSG T wrote:
OK, how's this. The minor's were left in complete disarray by the previous leadership, who you seem to have fond memories of, and Theo/Jed seem to have little alternative but to try to build up that system.


if that were true they wouldn't have kept the guy who was in charge of stocking it.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:10 am 
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My honest guess is Theo was pleasantly surprised at the amount of lower level inventory he inherited. I also believe he was surprised at exactly how poorly things were truly run prior to the takeover.


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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:13 am 
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SouthSideRyan wrote:
Don't you understand the well was poisoned????


THE MILK'S GONE BAD!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:34 am 
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jersey cubs fan wrote:
MSG T wrote:
OK, how's this. The minor's were left in complete disarray by the previous leadership, who you seem to have fond memories of, and Theo/Jed seem to have little alternative but to try to build up that system.


if that were true they wouldn't have kept the guy who was in charge of stocking it.



Maybe not, but we don"t know what direction he was given by the two separate regimes. I realize what he actually did and what he looked for, but it's quite possible that he's open to finding the type of player the new guys want. From what I've heard about him, he's a very good judge of talent, it could be (and I'd think likely) that he was told the type of position player and type of pitcher to find and draft. And the same thing happened when Theo/Jed/Jason took over. If he's willing and able to do so, why replace him? Now, if I understand things correctly, that point is rather moot now, but it still stands for the first year or so.

Basically, if he's identifying and drafting the type of player Theo and Jed want, what's the harm in keeping him? If he's not, you get rid of him.

Also note, I'm not advocating the idea of having the MLB club sucking until they get the MiL players in place to come up, THEN starting to sign FA's. I do agree with gooney, there's no reason that both can't be done at the same time, at least to the point of keeping the team competitive and near or above .500. That much I am disappointed with. However, I'm also willing to wait and see what happens this year before complaining that they don't know what they're doing or intentionally scrapping multiple years to try to get high draft picks etc. There's enough out there available via trade and FA, and without killing what they've built so far in the minors, to at least put a competitive team on the field.


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 Post subject: Re: Spending
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:55 am 
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jersey cubs fan wrote:
MSG T wrote:
OK, how's this. The minor's were left in complete disarray by the previous leadership, who you seem to have fond memories of, and Theo/Jed seem to have little alternative but to try to build up that system.


if that were true they wouldn't have kept the guy who was in charge of stocking it.

He was removed from his position and given some new title that makes it appear as if he has no real authority. He's basically a glorified consultant. Everyone else was removed. Theo and Jed have made it pretty clear through their words and actions that this entire organization was a complete mess and behind the time in all aspects when they stepped in.


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