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 Post subject: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:38 am 
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thought it'd be fun to get everyones perspective on what the cubs will have and be up against in the division over the next 3 years or so...let's start with the rest of the division

Reds : Dusty will be gone in a few years and that could cause a bit of a rift (for better or for worse) hopefully their cornerstones of votto phillips bruce and cueto will start their downfall cause that core can make it easy to win a lot of games as we've seen in recent years...but their farm system doesn't scream smooth sailing for the team on their own...jocketty is a real wild card depending on who he decides to pull the trigger on...but that can also get the low-mid market franchise in trouble..i see the reds as the best bet of winning the division almost every year for the next decade or so

brewers : they'll definately hit but their pitching will always be mediocre. financial constrants prevent them from ever buying those extra pieces and there farm system is in shambles due to the deals they've made in the past 5 years...hopefully they become the new astros over the next decade

pirates : they may actually be onto something here..mccutcheon will be a star for the next 5 years at least and i really think he'll stay there until his final years in baseball...they still have 3 big names ready to be promoted in taillon cole and marte and if the FO cashes in sometime soon they could give the reds a run for their money year after year

cardinals : all of their leaders are quickly leaving, the veteran pitching they've relied on the past few years is fading in lohse leaving, carp deteriorating, waino and garcia are damaged goods and this could lead to them burning their young pitching that will never have the chance to fill out. i don't see how they can continue to be great on offense now with pujols and berkman gone, beltran could retire any day now and they'll be left with their best hitters being mediocre in molina holliday craig and freese. their coaches are now greatly watered down with basically inviting the old 2004 team back into the dugout to replace hall of fame minds in larussa duncan and recently but to a lesser effect mcgwire..they'll have money off the books with pujols gone but with him being gone...what superstars will want to play there?

which leads us to the cubs...playing slow and steady for once...we're in an excellent position to have a great team by 2015 and maybe as soon as 14' but when it does happen it will be here to stay with young talented cost controlled players. the names of those players? your guess is as good as mine but i expect to see a few of the guys we have now to be packaged for future stars to crowd the field and lineup...i think pitching will come first which will help us jumpstart into competitiveness and once we crack the bank vault with a few smart FA signings and develop a position player star or 2 of our own we'll be set for a new culture here...it's the reds we need to model ourselves towards beating

competition will only increase with the worst team in the game leaving this year...who do u see us going head to head with down the wire in 15' and beyond? here's my prediction of the final NLC standings in 2015

1. Cubs
2. Reds
3. Pirates
4. Cardinals
5. Brewers

Really hoping the cards see what the basement finally looks like and stay there...and i really think it could happen


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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:01 am 
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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:10 am 
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Iloveoldstyle wrote:
thought it'd be fun to get everyones perspective on what the cubs will have and be up against in the division over the next 3 years or so...let's start with the rest of the division

Reds : Dusty will be gone in a few years and that could cause a bit of a rift (for better or for worse) hopefully their cornerstones of votto phillips bruce and cueto will start their downfall cause that core can make it easy to win a lot of games as we've seen in recent years...but their farm system doesn't scream smooth sailing for the team on their own...jocketty is a real wild card depending on who he decides to pull the trigger on...but that can also get the low-mid market franchise in trouble..i see the reds as the best bet of winning the division almost every year for the next decade or so

brewers : they'll definately hit but their pitching will always be mediocre. financial constrants prevent them from ever buying those extra pieces and there farm system is in shambles due to the deals they've made in the past 5 years...hopefully they become the new astros over the next decade

pirates : they may actually be onto something here..mccutcheon will be a star for the next 5 years at least and i really think he'll stay there until his final years in baseball...they still have 3 big names ready to be promoted in taillon cole and marte and if the FO cashes in sometime soon they could give the reds a run for their money year after year

cardinals : all of their leaders are quickly leaving, the veteran pitching they've relied on the past few years is fading in lohse leaving, carp deteriorating, waino and garcia are damaged goods and this could lead to them burning their young pitching that will never have the chance to fill out. i don't see how they can continue to be great on offense now with pujols and berkman gone, beltran could retire any day now and they'll be left with their best hitters being mediocre in molina holliday craig and freese. their coaches are now greatly watered down with basically inviting the old 2004 team back into the dugout to replace hall of fame minds in larussa duncan and recently but to a lesser effect mcgwire..they'll have money off the books with pujols gone but with him being gone...what superstars will want to play there?

which leads us to the cubs...playing slow and steady for once...we're in an excellent position to have a great team by 2015 and maybe as soon as 14' but when it does happen it will be here to stay with young talented cost controlled players. the names of those players? your guess is as good as mine but i expect to see a few of the guys we have now to be packaged for future stars to crowd the field and lineup...i think pitching will come first which will help us jumpstart into competitiveness and once we crack the bank vault with a few smart FA signings and develop a position player star or 2 of our own we'll be set for a new culture here...it's the reds we need to model ourselves towards beating

competition will only increase with the worst team in the game leaving this year...who do u see us going head to head with down the wire in 15' and beyond? here's my prediction of the final NLC standings in 2015

1. Cubs
2. Reds
3. Pirates
4. Cardinals
5. Brewers

Really hoping the cards see what the basement finally looks like and stay there...and i really think it could happen


Really hard to predict what will happen in 2015. Obviously that's what the FO is hoping for, but we still have very little in the way of pitching for the future. Our offensive players look promising, but are still very young and in the low minors. Our big advantage is money assuming Theo decides to start spending it.


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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:25 am 
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The Cardinals simply won't let themselves finish below 3rd in the division. Ever.

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 Post subject: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:01 am 
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Aramis Fan wrote:
The Cardinals simply won't let themselves finish below 3rd in the division. Ever.


there's no reason for a smart, major market team like st louis to ever have to bottom out in order to be good

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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:17 am 
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Aramis Fan wrote:
The Cardinals simply won't let themselves finish below 3rd in the division. Ever.


Yeah, the Cards are pretty consistent as opposed to the Cubs, Pirates, and Brewers.


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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:05 pm 
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There's also the whole Cardinals have one the top 5 farm systems thing to take into consideration.

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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:00 am 
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Slide Castro Slide wrote:
There's also the whole Cardinals have one the top 5 farm systems thing to take into consideration.


They must've been bad for a long time to build that up.

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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:45 am 
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SouthSideRyan wrote:
Slide Castro Slide wrote:
There's also the whole Cardinals have one the top 5 farm systems thing to take into consideration.


They must've been bad for a long time to build that up.


I have always thought that teams like the Cardinals and others don't focus so much on who to pick as much as they focus on how to develop. I am sure there is some great debate about this subject somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:01 am 
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NewUserName wrote:
SouthSideRyan wrote:
Slide Castro Slide wrote:
There's also the whole Cardinals have one the top 5 farm systems thing to take into consideration.


They must've been bad for a long time to build that up.


I have always thought that teams like the Cardinals and others don't focus so much on who to pick as much as they focus on how to develop. I am sure there is some great debate about this subject somewhere.


So you're telling me we don't have to suck for 2-3 years to make sure we get top draft picks?


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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:24 am 
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Treymon wrote:
Aramis Fan wrote:
The Cardinals simply won't let themselves finish below 3rd in the division. Ever.


there's no reason for a smart, major market team like st louis to ever have to bottom out in order to be good


/kyle

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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:26 am 
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but we weren't smart, employed Jim Hendry for way too long and had extremely little in the way of a foundation to build on so here we are

this is crying over spilt milk

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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:32 am 
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sneakypower wrote:
but we weren't smart, employed Jim Hendry for way too long and had extremely little in the way of a foundation to build on so here we are

this is crying over spilt milk


"Extremely little" until it's time to drool over Castro, Baez, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:01 pm 
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If you don't like the path the FO is taking, I'll let a great man sum it up for you: "If you don't like it, learn to love it, because it's the best thing going today! Whoooooooooooooooooooooo!"


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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:28 pm 
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The Cubs had a higher ranked system (according to BA) as recently as 2011.

ETA: And the year before that, the Cardinals were ranked 29th.

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 Post subject: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:30 pm 
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KyleJRM wrote:
sneakypower wrote:
but we weren't smart, employed Jim Hendry for way too long and had extremely little in the way of a foundation to build on so here we are

this is crying over spilt milk


"Extremely little" until it's time to drool over Castro, Baez, etc.

Who are the etc's here?

How do you punctuate "etc.'s"?


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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:43 pm 
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Almora, Soler

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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:10 pm 
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KyleJRM wrote:
sneakypower wrote:
but we weren't smart, employed Jim Hendry for way too long and had extremely little in the way of a foundation to build on so here we are

this is crying over spilt milk


"Extremely little" until it's time to drool over Castro, Baez, etc.


And what else? One great ML asset and one in the low minors. Oh, and Shark. Other than that, it was a wasteland.

Love the "etc.", as if there was anything else of note. He left something, but it was pretty [expletive] far from a foundation.

It speaks volumes of Hendry's regime that nearly all of our top prospects have been added in the past 12 months.


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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:32 pm 
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XZero77 wrote:
KyleJRM wrote:
sneakypower wrote:
but we weren't smart, employed Jim Hendry for way too long and had extremely little in the way of a foundation to build on so here we are

this is crying over spilt milk


"Extremely little" until it's time to drool over Castro, Baez, etc.


And what else? One great ML asset and one in the low minors. Oh, and Shark. Other than that, it was a wasteland.

Love the "etc.", as if there was anything else of note. He left something, but it was pretty [expletive] far from a foundation.

It speaks volumes of Hendry's regime that nearly all of our top prospects have been added in the past 12 months.


Except for Castro, Rizzo (who we got for Cashner), and all of the other prospects we received by trading Marshall, Dempster, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:12 pm 
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XZero77 wrote:
KyleJRM wrote:
sneakypower wrote:
but we weren't smart, employed Jim Hendry for way too long and had extremely little in the way of a foundation to build on so here we are

this is crying over spilt milk


"Extremely little" until it's time to drool over Castro, Baez, etc.


And what else? One great ML asset and one in the low minors. Oh, and Shark. Other than that, it was a wasteland.

Love the "etc.", as if there was anything else of note. He left something, but it was pretty [expletive] far from a foundation.


And Garza. And Barney. And the trade bait that got Rizzo, Wood, Torreyes, Vizcaino and Lout. And that 4-win LFer we put out there. And the entire low minors draft class that owned the NWL lists.

But other than a middle infield, a middle-of-the-order bat, three-fifths of a rotation, a bunch of trade bait and a wave of prospects, there was a completely blank slate for St. Theo to work his magic.

Quote:
It speaks volumes of Hendry's regime that nearly all of our top prospects have been added in the past 12 months.


On the Fangraphs top 15, our current regime inherited 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 15. And it didn't exactly take a wizard to turn the top two draft picks into top-15 organizational guys.

It speaks more of our current regime that nearly every worthwhile major leaguer is a legacy.


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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:15 pm 
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KyleJRM wrote:
XZero77 wrote:
It speaks volumes of Hendry's regime that nearly all of our top prospects have been added in the past 12 months.


On the Fangraphs top 15, our current regime inherited 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 15. And it didn't exactly take a wizard to turn the top two draft picks into top-15 organizational guys.


I would highly recommend not using the Fan Graphs top prospect list. I mean, Dillon Maples at #4?

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It speaks more of our current regime that nearly every worthwhile major leaguer is a legacy.


I think it speaks more to the fact that the current regime has been around for ONE year.


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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Vizcaino came from trading two guys that Theo/Jed signed, Maholm and Johnson.

The moving target from "being frustrated with the talent level on the MLB roster" to "using the same moves that created the MLB roster as justification that the talent level in the system was fine" is a confusing one to me.


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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:47 pm 
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Hey, it's that thing where people pretend you can still acquire elite amateur talent without being bad again.

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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:51 pm 
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KyleJRM wrote:
XZero77 wrote:
And what else? One great ML asset and one in the low minors. Oh, and Shark. Other than that, it was a wasteland.

Love the "etc.", as if there was anything else of note. He left something, but it was pretty [expletive] far from a foundation.


And Garza. And Barney. And the trade bait that got Rizzo, Wood, Torreyes, Vizcaino and Lout. And that 4-win LFer we put out there. And the entire low minors draft class that owned the NWL lists.

But other than a middle infield, a middle-of-the-order bat, three-fifths of a rotation, a bunch of trade bait and a wave of prospects, there was a completely blank slate for St. Theo to work his magic.

Quote:
It speaks volumes of Hendry's regime that nearly all of our top prospects have been added in the past 12 months.


On the Fangraphs top 15, our current regime inherited 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 15. And it didn't exactly take a wizard to turn the top two draft picks into top-15 organizational guys.

It speaks more of our current regime that nearly every worthwhile major leaguer is a legacy.

i like this constant distortion where whenever the Theo regime turns a mediocre reliever into a frontline starter or damaged goods into a franchise player, full credit goes to Hendry for giving him that player- "we traded Greg Rohan for Tommy Hanson? well done, Hendry!"

and what a laugh, seeing Barney as like the third name listed..."i fully stocked the cupboards for you; there should be a can of Hormel chili and maybe a granola bar in there"

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 Post subject: Re: the NL central 3 years from now...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:24 pm 
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sneakypower wrote:
KyleJRM wrote:
XZero77 wrote:
And what else? One great ML asset and one in the low minors. Oh, and Shark. Other than that, it was a wasteland.

Love the "etc.", as if there was anything else of note. He left something, but it was pretty [expletive] far from a foundation.


And Garza. And Barney. And the trade bait that got Rizzo, Wood, Torreyes, Vizcaino and Lout. And that 4-win LFer we put out there. And the entire low minors draft class that owned the NWL lists.

But other than a middle infield, a middle-of-the-order bat, three-fifths of a rotation, a bunch of trade bait and a wave of prospects, there was a completely blank slate for St. Theo to work his magic.

Quote:
It speaks volumes of Hendry's regime that nearly all of our top prospects have been added in the past 12 months.


On the Fangraphs top 15, our current regime inherited 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 15. And it didn't exactly take a wizard to turn the top two draft picks into top-15 organizational guys.

It speaks more of our current regime that nearly every worthwhile major leaguer is a legacy.

i like this constant distortion where whenever the Theo regime turns a mediocre reliever into a frontline starter or damaged goods into a franchise player, full credit goes to Hendry for giving him that player- "we traded Greg Rohan for Tommy Hanson? well done, Hendry!"

and what a laugh, seeing Barney as like the third name listed..."i fully stocked the cupboards for you; there should be a can of Hormel chili and maybe a granola bar in there"


What about the constant distortion that everything Theo has done has been of his making. The plan was always to turn Shark into a starter. Any GM (including Hendry) would have made the deal trading Cashner for Rizzo because the Padres had already committed themselves to Alonso. The cupboard wasn't as bare as some of you are making it out to be.


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