The Cardinals

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Re: The Cardinals

Postby Edith Cox » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:39 am

He must be the best teammate ever to jump right into talking up Molina if he didn't mean it.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby Cubswin11 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:42 am

Edith Cox wrote:He must be the best teammate ever to jump right into talking up Molina if he didn't mean it.

Yadi probably threatens all the young guys that they need to talk him up any chance they can to heighten his sense of value and mystique.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby Bull » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:49 am

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Edith Cox wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
Unless that reason he was secretly almost 40 the entire time and it doesn't matter that he's 37 and broken now, then who gives a horsefeathers.


How do you know he's still hurt?

Are all our hurt guys going to be broken when they come back of the IL too, or is this just a SSS Cardinals thing?


Haahahaha! Too good.


Kintzler, Kimbrel and Strop are obviously all still broken. So, yes?
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby Sammy Sofa » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:51 pm

What a weird reply.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:41 pm

Why are the balls so sticky in St Louis

https://apple.news/AIvsgLs-DREOqMt0KPcy0MQ
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby Bull » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:50 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:What a weird reply.

More replying to the guy you were replying to. And in general agreement to the idea that it’s not unreasonable to think that someone (anyone) coming off the IL may have some residual issues. That may manifest itself in lost velocity, lack of control, or decreased use of the pitch causing the pain for pitchers or being old and slow and ugly in the case of a certain catcher.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby raisincharlie » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:35 pm

Cardinals fan here. I am not here to troll as I respect the Cubs and Chicago as a city.

This guy is off base about Molina. Molina had a great career. I've seen his entire career arc. He had a great night last night even, but the dude is nearly toast. He's nice to have back there and we have an org that waits for things to mature before making bold moves like moving on from an HOF catcher.

Wieters might be the net-better option, but the Cardinals really have some x-factor thing they like about Molina and his game management beyond what can be quantified. It explains their patience in younger players like Edman too.

Molina was a great catcher last year for a 36 year old. This year he looks and plays like he's 37. Luckily for us, Knizner is on the way and looks like a great heir.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby champaignchris » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:24 pm

raisincharlie wrote:... an HOF catcher...


I know it’s going to happen. I’m resigned to it. But does average bat, great glove get you in the Hall now for catchers? What’s the difference between Molina and Jason Kendall, AJ Pierzynski, Benito Santiago and a half a dozen other similar catchers who aren’t in the Hall and have no chance to? Are we lowering the bar to 30 career WAR and being a good teammate on a WS winning team?

Even if we assume that Molina is one of the best half-dozen defensive catchers of all time (a point I’m not conceding), he doesn’t hit nearly as well as Bench, Pudge, or Carter did. Molina is much closer offensively to the non-HoF defensive greats like Sundberg and Boone, the difference being that Molina had a slightly longer stretch of offensive adequacy.

I’d argue that Molina is not the best catcher of his generation. That’s Joe Mauer even when excluding the numbers he racked up when he was primarily a 1b. Or Buster Posey if you want to expand the definition of generation a bit. Molina is basically on the same level as Russell Martin, trading offense for defense.

I’d argue that Molina is not even the best catcher in Cardinals history. That’s Ted Simmons, who belongs in the Hall way before Molina does.

That said, I know Molina is going to the Hall because a bunch of sportswriters say so, without much beyond anecdotal support for their reasoning. I’ve got six or seven years to get over it. I’ll be fine.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby New York Cubs Fan » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:57 pm

champaignchris wrote:
raisincharlie wrote:... an HOF catcher...


I know it’s going to happen. I’m resigned to it. But does average bat, great glove get you in the Hall now for catchers? What’s the difference between Molina and Jason Kendall, AJ Pierzynski, Benito Santiago and a half a dozen other similar catchers who aren’t in the Hall and have no chance to? Are we lowering the bar to 30 career WAR and being a good teammate on a WS winning team?

Even if we assume that Molina is one of the best half-dozen defensive catchers of all time (a point I’m not conceding), he doesn’t hit nearly as well as Bench, Pudge, or Carter did. Molina is much closer offensively to the non-HoF defensive greats like Sundberg and Boone, the difference being that Molina had a slightly longer stretch of offensive adequacy.

I’d argue that Molina is not the best catcher of his generation. That’s Joe Mauer even when excluding the numbers he racked up when he was primarily a 1b. Or Buster Posey if you want to expand the definition of generation a bit. Molina is basically on the same level as Russell Martin, trading offense for defense.

I’d argue that Molina is not even the best catcher in Cardinals history. That’s Ted Simmons, who belongs in the Hall way before Molina does.

That said, I know Molina is going to the Hall because a bunch of sportswriters say so, without much beyond anecdotal support for their reasoning. I’ve got six or seven years to get over it. I’ll be fine.


I hate defending Yadi, but Fangraphs added framing to their defensive WAR and he's now the #1 defensive catcher of all time in fangraphs value, and over 50 career WAR, which is 13th best in MLB history for a catcher (3rd amongst his peers, less than 2 WAR behind both McCann and Martin). That's at least close to HOF worthy to me.

Catcher WAR MLB History

ETA: Framing stats start after 2002, so historical rankings probably shift somewhat, but those guys could be hurt just as much as they are helped by it, so he likely ends up in a similar spot.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby TomtheBombadil » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:13 pm

^^ Good, because young and prime Molina is the best defensive C I've ever seen by miles and miles and miles. I don't have a second place, and if it is it's some no bat guy like Brad Ausmus. I hate the Cardinals and all but getting prime Rolen, Pujols, Molina, and Edmomds together everyday was pretty cool....preeeeettty coool. I think they're all HOFers
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby mul21 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:41 pm

New York Cubs Fan wrote:
champaignchris wrote:
raisincharlie wrote:... an HOF catcher...


I know it’s going to happen. I’m resigned to it. But does average bat, great glove get you in the Hall now for catchers? What’s the difference between Molina and Jason Kendall, AJ Pierzynski, Benito Santiago and a half a dozen other similar catchers who aren’t in the Hall and have no chance to? Are we lowering the bar to 30 career WAR and being a good teammate on a WS winning team?

Even if we assume that Molina is one of the best half-dozen defensive catchers of all time (a point I’m not conceding), he doesn’t hit nearly as well as Bench, Pudge, or Carter did. Molina is much closer offensively to the non-HoF defensive greats like Sundberg and Boone, the difference being that Molina had a slightly longer stretch of offensive adequacy.

I’d argue that Molina is not the best catcher of his generation. That’s Joe Mauer even when excluding the numbers he racked up when he was primarily a 1b. Or Buster Posey if you want to expand the definition of generation a bit. Molina is basically on the same level as Russell Martin, trading offense for defense.

I’d argue that Molina is not even the best catcher in Cardinals history. That’s Ted Simmons, who belongs in the Hall way before Molina does.

That said, I know Molina is going to the Hall because a bunch of sportswriters say so, without much beyond anecdotal support for their reasoning. I’ve got six or seven years to get over it. I’ll be fine.


I hate defending Yadi, but Fangraphs added framing to their defensive WAR and he's now the #1 defensive catcher of all time in fangraphs value, and over 50 career WAR, which is 13th best in MLB history for a catcher (3rd amongst his peers, less than 2 WAR behind both McCann and Martin). That's at least close to HOF worthy to me.

Catcher WAR MLB History

ETA: Framing stats start after 2002, so historical rankings probably shift somewhat, but those guys could be hurt just as much as they are helped by it, so he likely ends up in a similar spot.



I'd be shocked if those don't get some revision at some point. There's no way in hell the guy added nearly 50% to his total value just from framing and there's other guys I certainly don't buy are losing as much as they did with that figured in.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby champaignchris » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:21 pm

New York Cubs Fan wrote:I hate defending Yadi, but Fangraphs added framing to their defensive WAR and he's now the #1 defensive catcher of all time in fangraphs value, and over 50 career WAR, which is 13th best in MLB history for a catcher (3rd amongst his peers, less than 2 WAR behind both McCann and Martin). That's at least close to HOF worthy to me.

Catcher WAR MLB History

ETA: Framing stats start after 2002, so historical rankings probably shift somewhat, but those guys could be hurt just as much as they are helped by it, so he likely ends up in a similar spot.


So, are Russell Martin and Brian McCann Hall of Famers? McCann, in particular, is a significantly better bat whose defense has not been as highly regarded absent those framing stats.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby squally1313 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:22 pm

During arguably the worst stretch of the Cubs season, we want to have a discussion on Yadi's HOF credentials?

horsefeathers that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW5Xm_0hyaU
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby Cubswin11 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:29 pm

The HOF is already broken and overseen by self-righteous pricks. From a “history of the game” perspective Yadi belongs in and so do a lot of guys who haven’t gotten in or won’t and I lean towards the HOF being more a history of the game/museum thing at this point than some sort of keeper of telling us who was good or not. If it was performance based I’d say he doesn’t belong.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby raisincharlie » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:38 pm

53+ WAR according to Fangraphs. (The real WAR)

2 rings and good postseason moments.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby Derwood » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:01 pm

raisincharlie wrote:53+ WAR according to Fangraphs. (The real WAR)

2 rings and good postseason moments.


You know a player who (currently) has around 44 fWAR, 2 rings and good postseason moments?

Spoiler: show
Ben Zobrist


First ballot HoF'er?
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby raisincharlie » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:37 pm

I think defense always carries a bigger weight with catcher.

I wouldn't put Yadi in for awhile. Not first ballot. But if Baines is in, Yadi sure as horsefeathers is getting in.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:46 pm

Derwood wrote:
raisincharlie wrote:53+ WAR according to Fangraphs. (The real WAR)

2 rings and good postseason moments.


You know a player who (currently) has around 44 fWAR, 2 rings and good postseason moments?

Spoiler: show
Ben Zobrist


First ballot HoF'er?

TWO TIME WORLD SERIES MVP?! HE SHOULD GET IN WITHOUT HAVING TO BE ON THE BALLOT!!!
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby raisincharlie » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:48 pm

d_money wrote:A lotta Cards on the wrong side of 30 - Fowler, Molina, Carpenter, Goldschmitt, Mikolas, Miller - with significant financial commitments. They could get old/bad real fast.

To be fair, we've heard this for 15+ years. "They'll get old" but we always have more coming up the pipeline despite drafting low.

Dylan Carlson and Nolan Gorman are top 30 level prospects. Flaherty is 23 and throwing like a top 15 pitcher now. Carlos will be in the rotation again. Jordan Hicks throws 103 and is 22. If Alex Reyes can be even half what we expected, then he will be a nice back end guy. Goldschmidt has good spray ability/exit velo and should be fine until at least the end of his contract.

Fowler and Carpenter are the main problems. The team is already willing to put Fowler in a 4th OF role. So he will just be an expensive backup sunk-cost. Who cares, the owner is the third richest in the league, he can eat it. They may have to pray for Carpenter to defy age cliffs like Zobrist has until Gorman is ready.

DeJong, Wong, Bader are all young. Edman is a great bench/role player and he's 24. Bader just needs to bat 100 wRC+ to be 3 WAR center fielder. More than doable. Gallegos has one of the better 3-year ZiPS projections of any Cardinal so he will be a good bullpen contributor. The Miller contract is nothing. And honestly, the Fowler contract is nothing--I look at it like they did Peralta's...you pay premium in years to get value in the earlier part of the deal. We're lucky he bounced back but he won't be penciled into the lineup if he's not at least hitting 108-115 wRC+. Not with his bad fielding.

Molina's contract is up next year and they will move him to a mostly bench role with Knizner getting shared catcher duties. They are committed to Knizner because they traded Carson Kelly, a decent catcher in his own right, because they like him so much.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby mul21 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:39 pm

Those are some insanely rose colored glasses you're wearing. I'm also amused by the sudden faith in the team by many after a hot streak where they beat up on garbage teams. Living here as a Cubs fan is a weird deal.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby Cubswin11 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:47 pm

Martinez will start again? He was moved to the pen because he isn’t healthy enough for the SP workload, Alex Reyes’s next healthy season will be his first, Hicks had TJ. Seems awfully optimistic on those guys.

I don’t get the Nolan Gorman love, he has a 33% K rate for his minor league career and is at 31% in A ball currently, he doesn’t take walks, doesn’t hit for average and the power just seems okay (15 Dongs in ~130 games this year).
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby NonProfitCow » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:25 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:Martinez will start again? He was moved to the pen because he isn’t healthy enough for the SP workload, Alex Reyes’s next healthy season will be his first, Hicks had TJ. Seems awfully optimistic on those guys.

Martinez solely to the pen was pretty much a panic move because the pen sucked early on and was exacerbated when Hicks went down. I don't see any reason that Martinez won't be back in the rotation next year with Gallegos taking over closing duties. Reyes is a pure wildcard though, albeit with tremendous upside.

I don’t get the Nolan Gorman love, he has a 33% K rate for his minor league career and is at 31% in A ball currently, he doesn’t take walks, doesn’t hit for average and the power just seems okay (15 Dongs in ~130 games this year).

The FSL is notoriously hard on hitters. The league average OPS is .667 to put his .723 in perspective. He's also doing it as one of, if not the youngest players in the league (turned 19 in May, league average age is 22.3) and he's expected to stay at 3b. To get an idea on his power...
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby raisincharlie » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:46 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:Martinez will start again? He was moved to the pen because he isn’t healthy enough for the SP workload, Alex Reyes’s next healthy season will be his first, Hicks had TJ. Seems awfully optimistic on those guys.

I don’t get the Nolan Gorman love, he has a 33% K rate for his minor league career and is at 31% in A ball currently, he doesn’t take walks, doesn’t hit for average and the power just seems okay (15 Dongs in ~130 games this year).

1. Nolan Gorman is 19 years old.
2. Why don't you sort by all the other people his age on Fangraphs and see how they're all doing.... He is on par with Kelenic and Ramos...
3. We might not get to see what an expected K rate for him is at on-age competition until he's 25 and a 3 year MLB vet.
4. This is from another forum where I read this but, even guys like Fernando Tatis Jr. pretty consistently show promotion issues. Consider his '18 AA season. Again, small sample size (smaller than Gormans), but 3.5 BB rate and K rate near 30%, and his ISO tanked. He seems fine now! (That .410 BABIP is noteworthy, though).
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby raisincharlie » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:57 pm

mul21 wrote:Those are some insanely rose colored glasses you're wearing. I'm also amused by the sudden faith in the team by many after a hot streak where they beat up on garbage teams.

Hey I know this is a Cubs forum but be fair! Cardinals have a .509 SOS to the Cubs's .499 SOS.

Cardinals build their teams to live and die by contact. That's why conventional pitching WAR stats are useless in grading the talent of a guy like Dakota Hudson who throws the ball right down the middle and Shildt fields scrappy low-hit tool defenders like Edman, Wong, DeJong, Bader to get the outs. Only the A's have a better BABIP-against/UZR ratio.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby Cubswin11 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:13 pm

NonProfitCow wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:Martinez will start again? He was moved to the pen because he isn’t healthy enough for the SP workload, Alex Reyes’s next healthy season will be his first, Hicks had TJ. Seems awfully optimistic on those guys.

Martinez solely to the pen was pretty much a panic move because the pen sucked early on and was exacerbated when Hicks went down. I don't see any reason that Martinez won't be back in the rotation next year with Gallegos taking over closing duties. Reyes is a pure wildcard though, albeit with tremendous upside.

I don’t get the Nolan Gorman love, he has a 33% K rate for his minor league career and is at 31% in A ball currently, he doesn’t take walks, doesn’t hit for average and the power just seems okay (15 Dongs in ~130 games this year).

The FSL is notoriously hard on hitters. The league average OPS is .667 to put his .723 in perspective. He's also doing it as one of, if not the youngest players in the league (turned 19 in May, league average age is 22.3) and he's expected to stay at 3b. To get an idea on his power...

I thought Martinez was moved to the pen because his shoulder is horsefeathers, there were all sorts of comments how it isn't in good enough shape to handle a regular starters workload.

In regards to Gorman... Eh, everyone hits for power now. That appears to be his only real tool, the swing and miss has to be a huge concern and lack of walks. He's a really intriguing prospect for sure and the age and level is a good mark for him, but I don't get the top 20-30 prospect in baseball love he's gotten.
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