The Cardinals

Discussion about other teams, non-cubs players, baseball history, sabr vs scouting, etc.
User avatar
Cubswin11
Superstar
Posts: 16930
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:17 pm
x 1940
x 1996

Re: The Cardinals

Postby Cubswin11 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:28 pm

ScrubMD wrote:I saw a lot of Cardinals fans wishing the Dodgers luck on Twitter last night, and I realized that that’s their life now, rooting for the teams the Cubs are playing in the playoffs. It was a satisfying feeling.

Image
2 x
Screw Pitchers

User avatar
Ding Dong Johnson
Crap Bag
Posts: 32159
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:42 am
Location: Durnsville
x 452
x 3503

Re: The Cardinals

Postby Ding Dong Johnson » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:49 pm

Derwood wrote:
ScrubMD wrote:I saw a lot of Cardinals fans wishing the Dodgers luck on Twitter last night, and I realized that that’s their life now, rooting for the teams the Cubs are playing in the playoffs. It was a satisfying feeling.


Cardinal fans and White Sox fans are the exact same people, just born in different parts of the state.

and then there's that whole Missouri thing
0 x
Image

User avatar
jersey cubs fan
Inner-Circle HOF
Posts: 56331
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:38 pm
Location: Hoboken squat cobbler
x 1554
x 5052

Re: The Cardinals

Postby jersey cubs fan » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:54 pm

Ding Dong Johnson wrote:
Derwood wrote:
ScrubMD wrote:I saw a lot of Cardinals fans wishing the Dodgers luck on Twitter last night, and I realized that that’s their life now, rooting for the teams the Cubs are playing in the playoffs. It was a satisfying feeling.


Cardinal fans and White Sox fans are the exact same people, just born in different parts of the state.

and then there's that whole Missouri thing

obligatory
1 x
longhotsummer wrote:I realize now, any opposing viewpoint, will not be tolerated.

User avatar
Derwood
Stall Monitor
Posts: 64938
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:44 pm
Location: 375 Miles East of Wrigley
x 472
x 1150

Re: The Cardinals

Postby Derwood » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:34 pm

Ding Dong Johnson wrote:
Derwood wrote:
ScrubMD wrote:I saw a lot of Cardinals fans wishing the Dodgers luck on Twitter last night, and I realized that that’s their life now, rooting for the teams the Cubs are playing in the playoffs. It was a satisfying feeling.


Cardinal fans and White Sox fans are the exact same people, just born in different parts of the state.

and then there's that whole Missouri thing


There are a ton of Cardinal fans in downstate Illinois, which is basically just Indiana/Missouri anyways
0 x

User avatar
mul21
5-Time All-Star
Posts: 8044
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Hell (a.k.a. St. Louis)
x 209
x 278
Contact:

Re: The Cardinals

Postby mul21 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:55 pm

People who don't understand advanced metrics are endlessly frustrating. I just spent 20 minutes explaining to a Cards fan why Molina likely won't get into the HOF using Ozzie Smith as a comparison point and the idiot still didn't understand how enormous the gap between what Ozzie did defensively vs. what Molina has done on top of the fact that Molina has a larger negative career offensive value on top of it. This was after the 60 something to 35 WAR discussion was already done because he was all "but defense". Morons.
0 x
I like beer.

User avatar
Hairyducked Idiot
Kyle in disguise
Posts: 32612
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:42 pm
Location: Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man
x 988
x 739

Re: The Cardinals

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:42 am

"defense" has long been code for "a value I'm making up to bridge the gap between how good measurable offensive stats say the player is and how good I want to believe him to be."
3 x

User avatar
Regular Show
Starter
Posts: 360
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 10:16 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 579
x 76

Re: The Cardinals

Postby Regular Show » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:03 am

Derwood wrote:
Ding Dong Johnson wrote:
Derwood wrote:
Cardinal fans and White Sox fans are the exact same people, just born in different parts of the state.

and then there's that whole Missouri thing


There are a ton of Cardinal fans in downstate Illinois, which is basically just Indiana/Missouri anyways


Indeed. You are right on all counts. I grew up in Southern Illinois so I saw it firsthand. I was lucky and grew up in a progressive community that leans left in politics and has a good mix of Cubs fans, but the majority of downstate Illinois is just like rural Indiana/Missouri in politics and religion and fandom.
0 x

User avatar
mul21
5-Time All-Star
Posts: 8044
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Hell (a.k.a. St. Louis)
x 209
x 278
Contact:

Re: The Cardinals

Postby mul21 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:27 pm

So, I'm going to have to argue with people about why this is so utterly wrong. Give me some talking points gents.

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/platform/a ... nasty-over
0 x
I like beer.

User avatar
Banedon
Curse You!
Posts: 63791
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:36 pm
Location: Kidding Myself
x 2914
x 3109

Re: The Cardinals

Postby Banedon » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:49 pm

mul21 wrote:So, I'm going to have to argue with people about why this is so utterly wrong. Give me some talking points gents.

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/platform/a ... nasty-over


Image
1 x
Image

User avatar
TomtheBombadil
All-Star
Posts: 4349
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:35 pm
x 162
x 258

Re: The Cardinals

Postby TomtheBombadil » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:51 pm

mul21 wrote:People who don't understand advanced metrics are endlessly frustrating. I just spent 20 minutes explaining to a Cards fan why Molina likely won't get into the HOF using Ozzie Smith as a comparison point and the idiot still didn't understand how enormous the gap between what Ozzie did defensively vs. what Molina has done on top of the fact that Molina has a larger negative career offensive value on top of it. This was after the 60 something to 35 WAR discussion was already done because he was all "but defense". Morons.


Among dumb things Cardinal fans will or have said this one actually doesn't bother me.
0 x

User avatar
Cubswin11
Superstar
Posts: 16930
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:17 pm
x 1940
x 1996

Re: The Cardinals

Postby Cubswin11 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:40 pm

mul21 wrote:So, I'm going to have to argue with people about why this is so utterly wrong. Give me some talking points gents.

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/platform/a ... nasty-over

That article/take is too dumb to even acknowledge
2 x
Screw Pitchers

User avatar
Brian707
All-Star
Posts: 1885
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:57 pm
Location: Algonquin IL
x 258
x 394

Re: The Cardinals

Postby Brian707 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:40 pm

mul21 wrote:So, I'm going to have to argue with people about why this is so utterly wrong. Give me some talking points gents.

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/platform/a ... nasty-over



Great timing on the article btw. Easy to say that on the brink of the Cubs elimination but this clown just knows deep down the Cubs will be destroying the Cardinals while being in WS contention for the next 5 years

Image
1 x

User avatar
Transmogrified Tiger
Inner-Circle HOF
Posts: 54246
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:23 pm
Location: Greater St. Louis
x 290
x 3958

Re: The Cardinals

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:09 pm

mul21 wrote:So, I'm going to have to argue with people about why this is so utterly wrong. Give me some talking points gents.

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/platform/a ... nasty-over


This is the brewerfan.net logic all over again.

- The Cubs have an enormous head start on the rest of the division in the form of Bryant/Rizzo. 10 wins from 2 position players gives the Cubs a leg up before you even get to the rest of the roster, and the Cubs have had and look to continue to have terrific depth.

- This really needs to be said twice. The Cubs are upwards of 10 games better than the rest of the division today. The most important players they lose over the next 2 offseasons are Arrieta and Davis, both guys who you don't necessarily want to trust for future seasons, and in Davis's case has only been around this year and are much more easily replaced with cash.

- Yes, the core will need to be paid more through arbitration, but the Cubs can afford to live at or above the luxury tax, and that means they aren't going to have to cut salary or even be all that inhibited in free agency. There's a path to a potential logjam around 2020 or so, but that is 1) 3 years away (see below) 2) requires spending on other really good players(e.g. Harper) and 3) assumes the Cubs will absolutely want to keep every pre-FA player that long. Maybe one of Schwarber/Russell/Baez tanks and they don't want to pay them their arb salaries. That's not going to make or break the Cubs competitive chances, and mitigates their risk on the payroll side.

- Projecting team quality more than 2-3 years in the future is 100% guesswork. 2 years ago, Eloy was putting up a .746 OPS in short season ball and Cease had a handful of wild innings in Mesa coming off TJS. This summer they were part of the 'depletion' of the farm system to get a controlled SP. 2 years ago, Happ put up a .763 OPS in Low-A, this year he was an above average player in the big leagues.

- But, if we're going to play doomsday with the Cubs chances years from now, make sure to do it with their competitors too. Fowler, Carpenter, and Molina are going to get worse before they get better. Tommy Pham has no track record for his 2017 (same with DeJong) and he turns 30 before Opening Day. Wacha was their 2nd best starter(an indictment itself) and is 2 years from FA. Their farm system has depth but their main hope for impact players are hoping Pham continues to run a .370 BABIP into his 30s and that Alex Reyes comes back from TJS with better control than he had before it. They are in purgatory.
13 x

User avatar
The_Achiever
Starter
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:28 am
x 221
x 72

Re: The Cardinals

Postby The_Achiever » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:05 pm

Nice post TT. The vaunted Brewers "scare" me more than the Cardinals. Anything can happen but I feel very, very good about the Cubs chances to control the division for at least the next 4 seasons.
1 x

User avatar
Duke Silver
5-Time All-Star
Posts: 9090
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:45 am
x 8231
x 5399

Re: The Cardinals

Postby Duke Silver » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:10 pm

That's a lot of talk from a fan of a team that's finished a combined 26.5 games behind the Cubs over the last two years while losing 27 of the last 41 head-to-head games.
0 x

davell
Hall of Fame
Posts: 20234
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:55 pm
x 1283
x 1732

Re: The Cardinals

Postby davell » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:36 am

True talent level gap from the Cubs to the Cards is pretty enormous. They can look at the downside of what some Cub players had this year, but aren't looking at their own team in the same way. The talent gap is gigantic and their system, while very good, isn't enough to bridge that gap, especially given the money we've got available to spend.

Its kind of comical, they're just not under the realization that we just won 92 in an unmotivated year and they were barely in our rear view, with them fighting and clawing, and trying their Cardinal Wayiest that they can muster.

But, that's what fans do. They believe. Even when numbers show them a completely different story, they still believe. And when they get pounded into submission again the next few years, they'll continue to do the same, just with a little less hope, because, deep down......They know they're actually wrong.
2 x
Additional rule: you have to have one or the other.The only exception is you have an amazing board name. davell, I'm looking at you; put up a [expletive] avatar or something if your name only sounds like somebody tried say Dave as they lapsed into a coma.

User avatar
Hairyducked Idiot
Kyle in disguise
Posts: 32612
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:42 pm
Location: Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man
x 988
x 739

Re: The Cardinals

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:38 am

Our pitching was the oldest in the National League this year and it will probably be a bit older next year. Trying to piece together pitching through free agency is hit and miss, so against the entire field, sure I have some concerns about the next year or two.

But there's no single team in the Central that looks anywhere close to what we do on paper.
1 x

User avatar
Tim
Hall of Fame
Posts: 43694
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:02 pm
Location: Naperville, IL
x 61
x 1534
Contact:

Re: The Cardinals

Postby Tim » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:12 am

I'm too lazy to re-post what I posted the other day. I'll just post this and ask everyone to figure out when our offensive players leave team control.

https://www.rosterresource.com/mlb-chicago-cubs-info/

(hint - it is 2022 before we lose anyone from the core)
1 x
Spoiler: show

Image

User avatar
Transmogrified Tiger
Inner-Circle HOF
Posts: 54246
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:23 pm
Location: Greater St. Louis
x 290
x 3958

Re: The Cardinals

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:20 am

Hairyducked Idiot wrote:Our pitching was the oldest in the National League this year and it will probably be a bit older next year. Trying to piece together pitching through free agency is hit and miss, so against the entire field, sure I have some concerns about the next year or two.

But there's no single team in the Central that looks anywhere close to what we do on paper.


Even if average age were something they wanted to optimize, they lose Lackey(38), Uehara(42), and Duensing(34), and likely Arrieta and Davis(both 31). Edwards is 25, Hendricks and Montgomery 27, Quintana is 28, and Wilson is 29. Lester and Strop are the only returners already over 30.
4 x

User avatar
Cubswin11
Superstar
Posts: 16930
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:17 pm
x 1940
x 1996

Re: The Cardinals

Postby Cubswin11 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:39 pm

Brewerfan.net chips in with their thread version of that horsefeathers bag article...... Their thread is titled "The Flaws of the Cubs, and can the Brewers avoid similar mistakes?"

Some of my fav quotes; "I don't expect them to completely crash & burn, but I think they turned what could have been a decade-long dynasty into a much shorter window of potential success."

"I agree with his premise though. Harper is a little more hype than production. Don't get me wrong, he's an outstanding player, but take away his 2015 season and he's really more of a 4-5 WAR player...Still great, but for a guy frequently compared to someone like Mike Trout levels of greatness, he's nowhere close. Trout is in a league of his own, but Harper is probably going to get that kind of level of elite money. I would love if the Cubs were the ones to give it to him."

They WANT us to sign Bryce Harper, lol


http://forum.brewerfan.net/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=36058
3 x
Screw Pitchers

User avatar
Regular Show
Starter
Posts: 360
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 10:16 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 579
x 76

Re: The Cardinals

Postby Regular Show » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:46 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:Brewerfan.net chips in with their thread version of that horsefeathers bag article...... Their thread is titled "The Flaws of the Cubs, and can the Brewers avoid similar mistakes?"

Some of my fav quotes; "I don't expect them to completely crash & burn, but I think they turned what could have been a decade-long dynasty into a much shorter window of potential success."

"I agree with his premise though. Harper is a little more hype than production. Don't get me wrong, he's an outstanding player, but take away his 2015 season and he's really more of a 4-5 WAR player...Still great, but for a guy frequently compared to someone like Mike Trout levels of greatness, he's nowhere close. Trout is in a league of his own, but Harper is probably going to get that kind of level of elite money. I would love if the Cubs were the ones to give it to him."

They WANT us to sign Bryce Harper, lol


http://forum.brewerfan.net/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=36058


Hmmm, they WANT us to sign B. Harper lol? Are you horsefeathering kidding me? Do they understand how gigantic a leap in production that would be going from J. Heyward-to-B. HARPER? How dangerous would our lineup be with B. Harper batting #3!?! That's hilarious. Do they also want us to sign M. Machado and J. Donaldson too LMAO?
0 x

User avatar
Brian707
All-Star
Posts: 1885
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:57 pm
Location: Algonquin IL
x 258
x 394

Re: The Cardinals

Postby Brian707 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:27 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:Some of my fav quotes; "I don't expect them to completely crash & burn, but I think they turned what could have been a decade-long dynasty into a much shorter window of potential success."



http://forum.brewerfan.net/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=36058



What the horsefeathers? Have they not paid attention to Theo's tenure in Boston? Or this this just them trying to convince themselves the Brewers have a chance in the next 5 years so they can sleep at night?
0 x

17 Seconds
Hall of Fame
Posts: 21545
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:36 am
x 474
x 756

Re: The Cardinals

Postby 17 Seconds » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:51 pm

i completely forgot about the brewers. those guys are funny.
0 x

User avatar
UMFan83
Inner-Circle HOF
Posts: 73044
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 8:42 pm
Location: Southport Ave
x 1960
x 2723
Contact:

Re: The Cardinals

Postby UMFan83 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:51 pm

Regular Show wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:Brewerfan.net chips in with their thread version of that horsefeathers bag article...... Their thread is titled "The Flaws of the Cubs, and can the Brewers avoid similar mistakes?"

Some of my fav quotes; "I don't expect them to completely crash & burn, but I think they turned what could have been a decade-long dynasty into a much shorter window of potential success."

"I agree with his premise though. Harper is a little more hype than production. Don't get me wrong, he's an outstanding player, but take away his 2015 season and he's really more of a 4-5 WAR player...Still great, but for a guy frequently compared to someone like Mike Trout levels of greatness, he's nowhere close. Trout is in a league of his own, but Harper is probably going to get that kind of level of elite money. I would love if the Cubs were the ones to give it to him."

They WANT us to sign Bryce Harper, lol


http://forum.brewerfan.net/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=36058


Hmmm, they WANT us to sign B. Harper lol? Are you horsefeathering kidding me? Do they understand how gigantic a leap in production that would be going from J. Heyward-to-B. HARPER? How dangerous would our lineup be with B. Harper batting #3!?! That's hilarious. Do they also want us to sign M. Machado and J. Donaldson too LMAO?


Of course they do, then the Cubs will have no money while only fielding five 5+ win position players to go along with several 2-4 win players. How can you win like that?
0 x
Win it for Fred

Gmoney08
All-Star
Posts: 1172
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:08 am
x 79
x 153

Re: The Cardinals

Postby Gmoney08 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:53 pm

Regular Show wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:Brewerfan.net chips in with their thread version of that horsefeathers bag article...... Their thread is titled "The Flaws of the Cubs, and can the Brewers avoid similar mistakes?"

Some of my fav quotes; "I don't expect them to completely crash & burn, but I think they turned what could have been a decade-long dynasty into a much shorter window of potential success."

"I agree with his premise though. Harper is a little more hype than production. Don't get me wrong, he's an outstanding player, but take away his 2015 season and he's really more of a 4-5 WAR player...Still great, but for a guy frequently compared to someone like Mike Trout levels of greatness, he's nowhere close. Trout is in a league of his own, but Harper is probably going to get that kind of level of elite money. I would love if the Cubs were the ones to give it to him."

They WANT us to sign Bryce Harper, lol


http://forum.brewerfan.net/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=36058


Hmmm, they WANT us to sign B. Harper lol? Are you horsefeathering kidding me? Do they understand how gigantic a leap in production that would be going from J. Heyward-to-B. HARPER? How dangerous would our lineup be with B. Harper batting #3!?! That's hilarious. Do they also want us to sign M. Machado and J. Donaldson too LMAO?



I fear pissing off the vaunted Brewers... so lets just do what they say and sign that Bryce Harper guy.
0 x


Return to “General Baseball Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest