The Cardinals

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Re: The Cardinals

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:10 pm

I dunno, person with 2 posts that both praise the Cardinals, when is it time to be worried
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby mul21 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:11 pm

They're under .500 still when not playing the Reds, so until that changes a lot, I'm not concerned.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby PackLandVA » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:42 pm

mul21 wrote:They're under .500 still when not playing the Reds, so until that changes a lot, I'm not concerned.


Cubs are under .500 when playing the Reds.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:44 pm

PackLandVA wrote:
mul21 wrote:They're under .500 still when not playing the Reds, so until that changes a lot, I'm not concerned.


Cubs are under .500 when playing the Reds.

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Re: The Cardinals

Postby mul21 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:10 pm

Can everyone go vote in this to make it not quite so stupidly lopsided? If this ass gets into the HOF it'll be a travesty.

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Re: The Cardinals

Postby Tim » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:16 pm

mul21 wrote:Can everyone go vote in this to make it not quite so stupidly lopsided? If this ass gets into the HOF it'll be a travesty.


Molina and Posey have overlapped enough to definitely be in the same generation. I have no idea how anyone could say Molina is better.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby Ding Dong Johnson » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:21 pm

somebody help buster out with the definition of generation
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby UMFan83 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:38 pm

Tim wrote:
mul21 wrote:Can everyone go vote in this to make it not quite so stupidly lopsided? If this ass gets into the HOF it'll be a travesty.


Molina and Posey have overlapped enough to definitely be in the same generation. I have no idea how anyone could say Molina is better.



Duh obviously because of all the things he does that are un-quantifiable even in this generation where almost everything is quantifiable.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby TBS Playoffs Insider » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:53 pm

I already do not care at all about the HOF but man, if Yadi got in on first ballot it would be the funniest thing ever. I almost hope it happens
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby mul21 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:36 pm

TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:I already do not care at all about the HOF but man, if Yadi got in on first ballot it would be the funniest thing ever. I almost hope it happens


It's absolutely amazing to me how Cardinals fans, even friends of mine who are smart and base their opinions on facts elsewhere, are completely blind to how undeserving of the HOF Molina is.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:43 pm

Being constantly bombarded by sports pundits extolling the awesomeness of Yadi is going to take a toehold, even among smart people, when the initial bias is pro-anything-Cardinals.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby MWV » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:08 pm

CyHawk_Cub wrote:Being constantly bombarded by sports pundits extolling the awesomeness of Yadi is going to take a toehold, even among smart people, when the initial bias is pro-anything-Cardinals.


Case in point: I always assumed that baseball writers, being more objective than myself about Molina, were probably right, and that he probably was a 1st ballot guy. I never really looked into it (I don't generally get that worked up about HOF issues.) In light of the current conversation, I thought I'd dig into the numbers a little.

Molina has lead all of MLB catchers in fWAR only once since his rookie season. Lucroy did it twice in that same span. So did Posey. Mauer did it four times. He's accumulated the 5th most fWAR among catchers from 2004 to the present, despite having played more games than everyone else in the top 5. I was actually a little shocked to find this out, because he's presented as a figure towering above his peers. He's had a long stretch of consistently above average play, and he's certainly a fan favorite, but I don't see the argument for him as a generational talent.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby mul21 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:58 pm

MWV wrote:
CyHawk_Cub wrote:Being constantly bombarded by sports pundits extolling the awesomeness of Yadi is going to take a toehold, even among smart people, when the initial bias is pro-anything-Cardinals.


Case in point: I always assumed that baseball writers, being more objective than myself about Molina, were probably right, and that he probably was a 1st ballot guy. I never really looked into it (I don't generally get that worked up about HOF issues.) In light of the current conversation, I thought I'd dig into the numbers a little.

Molina has lead all of MLB catchers in fWAR only once since his rookie season. Lucroy did it twice in that same span. So did Posey. Mauer did it four times. He's accumulated the 5th most fWAR among catchers from 2004 to the present, despite having played more games than everyone else in the top 5. I was actually a little shocked to find this out, because he's presented as a figure towering above his peers. He's had a long stretch of consistently above average play, and he's certainly a fan favorite, but I don't see the argument for him as a generational talent.


He's had like 3 positive value offensive seasons. His defensive value is significantly dwarfed by Pudge Rodriguez. His total WAR is at like 37 and HOF threshold is around 60. But Cardinals fans will tell you that in a day and age where everything is measurable, his abilities and contributions aren't and that's why he's a first ballot guy. It's incredibly insane.

I've even used Ozzie Smith as an example of a guy with ridiculous defensive value (and who was significantly, and surprisingly better than I thought offensively) to make the point that he's just not qualified and they still want no part of it.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby Cubswin11 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:06 pm

It’s insane the talk about him. But the HOF is an insane institution and he’s definitely getting in.


Has anyone ever dug in to the numbers on “Molina makes pitchers better” claim all those idiots always proclaim? I feel like the pitchers are going to end up with around the same numbers with non-Molina catchers as with him.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby champaignchris » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:25 pm

I don’t think there’s any question that Molina is one of the top 6 defensive catchers of all time.

The thing is, of the others on the same defensive level as him, the ones in the Hall - Bench, Carter, Pudge - were significantly better hitters than him. The ones that are not in the Hall - Boone, Sundberg - were significantly worse hitters than Molina. Molina has been a just below average MLB hitter (98 OPS+) for his career. Does that get you in the Hall? He’s a great defensive player, but he’s not on another level the way that Ozzie Smith was at shortstop.

Posey, Russell Martin, and Mauer (even when only counting his years as primarily a catcher) have all been more valuable than Molina.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:10 pm

champaignchris wrote:I don’t think there’s any question that Molina is one of the top 6 defensive catchers of all time.

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Re: The Cardinals

Postby Derwood » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:36 pm

I love that "1750 hits" is being touted as some sort of airtight statistical benchmark.

He is currently #420 (nice) on the all time hit list, behind current players like David Wright, Melky Cabrera and Hanley Ramirez (all of whom have more hits in fewer seasons)
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby Banedon » Tue May 01, 2018 3:01 am

champaignchris wrote:I don’t think there’s any question that Molina is one of the top 6 defensive catchers of all time.


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Re: The Cardinals

Postby 17 Seconds » Tue May 01, 2018 3:07 am

aramis has more war than yadi
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby Cubswin11 » Tue May 01, 2018 3:14 am

17 Seconds wrote:aramis has more war than yadi

To add to this he’s not even going to finish top 300, THREE HUNDRED, all time for WAR for position players and he’s probably not finishing top 500 if you include pitchers.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby TBS Playoffs Insider » Tue May 01, 2018 3:17 am

Banedon wrote:
champaignchris wrote:I don’t think there’s any question that Molina is one of the top 6 defensive catchers of all time.


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isnt he like top 4 in defensive WAR at catcher in way fewer games than the rest of the group?
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby SouthSideRyan » Tue May 01, 2018 4:57 am

He's behind Jim Sundberg and I-Rod if you're looking at a per-game basis. There are also guys behind him who would be ahead of him by rate including Charlie Bennett, Del Crandall(those guys might be made up), Charles Johnson, Steve Yeager, and Henry Blanco.

I also don't know how comfortable I am with catcher defensive metrics to be certain about his relative standing.
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby Cubfanintheknow » Tue May 01, 2018 2:01 pm

Banedon wrote:
champaignchris wrote:I don’t think there’s any question that Molina is one of the top 6 defensive catchers of all time.


Image


The gif got clipped a little too soon. Her next sentences is, "First of all, how dare you?"
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby champaignchris » Tue May 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Don’t you guys dare put me in a position where I have to defend how good a Cardinal is!!!

He isn’t even the best Cardinal catcher not currently in the Hall. (Ted Simmons.)
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Re: The Cardinals

Postby philosophizer75 » Tue May 01, 2018 6:31 pm

Never heard of this stat but it says it has to do with Hall of Fame worthiness and Molina is currently just barely outpacing that surefire second ballot HoFer Russell Martin.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_C.shtml


But apparently that only takes offensive value into consideration? I dunno.
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