Baseball History Thread

[Banedon]

Anybody know his WAR?

[biittner77]

Would be better if he had a cigar in his mouth

[OleMissCub]

Castro's baseball skill has been wildly inflated over the years. He played on his intramural law school team, but that's about it.

[jersey cubs fan]

Anybody know his WAR?

4-4-1

[ConstableRabbit]

Anybody know his WAR?

It was Cold, AFAIK.

[OleMissCub]

Some great Tony Gwynn stats

[minnesotacubsfan]

Castro's baseball skill has been wildly inflated over the years. He played on his intramural law school team, but that's about it.

Always the southern defeatist

[OleMissCub]

Was talking to a buddy of mine this morning who believes Andruw Jones should be in the HOF damn near based on his defense alone. He has the highest dWAR of any outfielder ever and it's not even close. His career dWAR is 24.1. The next closest outfielder is Mays at 18.1 and the next closest after that is Devon White with 16.2. That's an extreme gap between Jones and his colleagues.

My feeling is that yes, in a vacuum, Jones should be a HOFer: Best defensive outfielder ever, 10 Gold Gloves, 6 All-Star appearances, 434 HR, etc. However, as we know, HOF voting isn't done in a vacuum and I never got the sense that Jones was all that popular among baseball fans or amongst his peers. I think the prevailing idea about his career is that he was lazy and that his career was actually a letdown given his skills.

[soccer10k]

Less baseball history, more new game thread.

[OleMissCub]

via the internets...

Mark Belanger of the Orioles had a 41 career WAR despite having a career line of .228/.300/.280. He has the second highest dWAR ever behind Ozzie Smith.

Belanger was one of the few guys to ever be "reverse pinch hit" for. In September of '75, Earl Weaver decided that despite his fielding ability, giving Belanger a full game's worth of at-bats might be a bad idea. So for road games - when the Orioles batted in the top of the first - Weaver would start Royle Stillman at "shortstop" and have him bat leadoff or second. Then Belanger would replace Stillman, either as a pinch runner, or defensively in the bottom of the first.

[Banedon]

[OleMissCub]

https://twitter.com/MikeStandish/status/773197155708305408

[OleMissCub]

Short vignette about Don Kessinger and his grandson who is also a stud shortstop and how he got to play at Wrigley in an All-American game wearing Don's number playing the same position.

[OleMissCub]

Was just messing around on BR and started looking at Santo's page. There was a 7 season stretch where he averaged a 7.7 WAR. Sick.

[Sammy Sofa]

Was just messing around on BR and started looking at Santo's page. There was a 7 season stretch where he averaged a 7.7 WAR. Sick.

Works on multiple levels.

[OleMissCub]

Top 10 WAR averages over a Ten Eleven Year stretch

Babe Ruth (20-30) 10.2
Willie Mays (54-64) 9.4
Lou Gehrig (27-37) 8.9
Barry Bonds (94-04) 8.6
Ty Cobb (07-17) 8.6
Honus Wagner (02-12) 8.4
Stan Musial (43-54) 8.3
Hank Aaron (57-67) 8.2
Mickey Mantle (52-62) 8.1
Albert Pujols (01-11) 7.9

[mul21]

Those are all at least 11 years.

[OleMissCub]

Those are all at least 11 years.

Indeed.

[biittner77]

Those are all at least 11 years.

Indeed.

Why not make 10 louder?

[Stannis]

eh, the stuff about Gwynn is nice and everything, but what DiMaggio did was way more impressive.

[Stannis]

DiMaggio had the same amount of career walks (790) in 2,560 fewer PA's.

DiMaggio had a 4.8% career k rate, Gwynn's was 4.2% - DiMaggio had 226 more career home runs than Gwynn did, with an SLG .120 points higher.

[Stannis]

DiMaggio, in 1941, slugged .643 and had a bb/k ratio of 76/13 in 622 plate appearances. that's a .643 SLG with a 2% k rate.

Tony Gwynn never came close to that kind of k rate, ever.

[David]

Gwynn didn't get to only face a bunch of slob white guys though

[biittner77]

Gwynn didn't get to only face a bunch of slob white guys though

But there were also only like 12 teams so that kind of even things out.

[OleMissCub]

Gwynn didn't get to only face a bunch of slob white guys though

Gwynn obviously faced better talent, and you definitely got the "white" part correct, but they weren't slobs. Baseball was THE sport in America at that time, thus EVERYONE with any athletic ability played it. Granted, your talent pool was like 1/10th what it is now due to smaller population and the obvious demographic barriers, but the guys who made it to the majors back then were still the most elite (white) athletes and ballplayers of their time. It's not like some rube from Nebraska could just show up at Yankee stadium with a bag on a stick over his shoulder and knock on the door and be like "hey! I'm good, let me play!" Though the modern farm system wasn't developed until the 40's, they still had very extensive minor leagues back then and just like today you had to work your way up.

You also have to take into account how much of baseball is skill-based as opposed to being purely athletic-based. "Baseball skill" translates throughout the eras to a large degree. Ken Griffey played against and struggled against a guy like Rick Reuschel. 20 years earlier Rick Reuschel was getting clobbered by guys like Pete Rose. 20 years before that Rose was getting dominated by guys like Warren Spahn. 20 years before that Spahn was getting smacked around the yard by Jimmie Foxx. 20 years before that Foxx was getting punked by Walter Johnson and so on...

There's no argument that the talent pool is much larger and players today are obviously bigger, stronger, and faster. Duh, of course they are. So ya, you time machine 1930 Lou Gehrig into the 2017 Cubs lineup and he for damn sure isn't going to be hitting .340 like he was 75 years earlier. However, due to how much natural skill is involved with baseball, I think your guys like Williams, Ruth, Cobb, or Gehrig would still be elite today if they had been raised with the same nutrition and physical training opportunities as modern players.