Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Discussion about other teams, non-cubs players, baseball history, sabr vs scouting, etc.
Cubfanintheknow
All-Star
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat May 10, 2003 12:27 pm
x 37
x 143

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby Cubfanintheknow » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:51 am

Best Lee Smith save ever.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_3gnuDuWV5A

I remember watching this live and wondering how the hell he was still standing up,
0 x

d_money
All-Star
Posts: 2482
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:57 pm
x 91

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby d_money » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:48 am

UMFan83 wrote:LaRussa is such a sanctimonious piece of horsefeathers

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2551 ... ctors-weak

He is a prick.
0 x

User avatar
SouthSideRyan
is ELL
Posts: 50043
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:08 am
Location: South Loop
x 764
x 1975

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby SouthSideRyan » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:25 am

UMFan83 wrote:LaRussa is such a sanctimonious piece of horsefeathers

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2551 ... ctors-weak


"In the '80s and '90s, almost all of the stats that people trust, he was in the top five -- for 20 years.


0 times in top 5 in BA, 0 in HRs, 1 in RBI. What exactly are these stats you shingle infested carcass?
0 x
Exile on Waveland wrote: IU smells like poop.

NonProfitCow
All-Star
Posts: 4924
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:15 am
x 222
x 803

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby NonProfitCow » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:37 am

SouthSideRyan wrote:
UMFan83 wrote:LaRussa is such a sanctimonious piece of horsefeathers

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2551 ... ctors-weak


"In the '80s and '90s, almost all of the stats that people trust, he was in the top five -- for 20 years.


0 times in top 5 in BA, 0 in HRs, 1 in RBI. What exactly are these stats you shingle infested carcass?

Quit it with that weak-a-- superficial bulls---. Trust the stats that Baseball Men™ trust.

Double Plays turned as RF. Top 5 in 82,83,85 and 86.
2 x

soccer10k
Hall of Fame
Posts: 38556
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:21 pm
Location: Sacramento
x 1557

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby soccer10k » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:43 am

SouthSideRyan wrote:
UMFan83 wrote:LaRussa is such a sanctimonious piece of horsefeathers

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2551 ... ctors-weak


"In the '80s and '90s, almost all of the stats that people trust, he was in the top five -- for 20 years.


0 times in top 5 in BA, 0 in HRs, 1 in RBI. What exactly are these stats you shingle infested carcass?


Don't forget hits where Baines had one top 5 finish. Even if you go to top-10, you get 3 in BA, 2 in RBI, 1 in HR and 1 in H.

We should Tony some slack. I heard he did the interview in his car right after taking a nap while waiting for a stoplight to turn to green.
0 x
In Theo we trust.

User avatar
Derwood
Stall Monitor
Posts: 72015
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:44 pm
Location: 375 Miles East of Wrigley
x 1406
x 3046

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby Derwood » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:41 pm

He was top 5 in WAR five times.











Top 5 on his own team, I mean
2 x

d_money
All-Star
Posts: 2482
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:57 pm
x 91

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby d_money » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:58 pm

The only compelling argument for Baines is he’s #34 on all time RBI list. Other than that, I can’t see it.
0 x

User avatar
OleMissCub
Hall of Fame
Posts: 38007
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:32 am
x 1383
x 1760

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby OleMissCub » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:44 pm

I posted this on another board when someone claimed that the HOF had already jumped the shark with Tim Raines and that Baines' induction really wasn't all that different...

Categories where they ranked in the Top 10 in a season and where they ranked within the Top 10 that season:

Raines
BA: (4 times) 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 8th
OBP: (7) 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 6th
SLG: (1) 9th
WAR: (5) 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th
Runs (8) 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th
RBI (0)
Hits (6) 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th, 10th
Doubles (3) 1st, 6th, 10th
Triples (9) too many to list
HR (0)
Steals (11) 1st four times

Baines
BA: (3) 6th, 8th, 10th
OBP (1) 7th
SLG (1) 1st
WAR: (0)
Runs (0)
RBI (2) 4th, 8th
Hits (1) 5th
Doubles (1) 6th
Triples (3) 2nd, 3rd, 8th
HR (1) 9th
Steals (0)

Led the league in a stat:
Raines - 9 times
Baines - 1 time

Was Top 10 in league in a stat:
Raines - 54 times
Baines - 13 times
0 x

champaignchris
Starter
Posts: 903
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:40 pm
x 8
x 198

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby champaignchris » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:38 pm

There are plenty of arguments to be made that the Hall has already jumped the shark. I don’t think the inclusion of Tim Raines is one of them.
0 x

User avatar
sneakypower
Javy Baez Fanclub President
Posts: 12044
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:58 am
Location: behind the boathouse
x 729
x 1328

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby sneakypower » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:26 pm

looking at his stats, Raines' knees seems another tragic victim of Olympic Stadium brutality along with guys like Vlad & Dawson
0 x

champaignchris
Starter
Posts: 903
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:40 pm
x 8
x 198

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby champaignchris » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:38 pm

sneakypower wrote:looking at his stats, Raines' knees seems another tragic victim of Olympic Stadium brutality along with guys like Vlad & Dawson


Yeah, he started missing a lot of games starting in about 1987. It’s pretty common for outfielders who get a major portion of their value from speed to have a major fall off in production after age 30 and you see that in his rate stats.

But maybe he could have had another half season or so of counting stats during his prime had he been playing for a team that didn’t use outdoor carpet over concrete as its playing surface. So maybe 100 more hits, 5 more HRs, 20 more steals, 2.5 more on his career WAR. Maybe another All Star appearance. Would that have gotten him to the Hall sooner? Don’t know. Wouldn’t have hurt.

Dude still had an .880 OPS in 115 games/486 PAs for the Sox in 1993.
0 x

stitchface
Superstar
Posts: 12201
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 3:28 am
Location: On a levee somewhere
x 25
x 108

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby stitchface » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:10 pm

gflore34 wrote:Anyone else remember thinking oh horsefeathers when Garvey came up with Wiggins on in the 1984 NLCS game 4?

horsefeathers off. never mention this again
0 x

chopsx9
Starter
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:22 am
x 21
x 73

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby chopsx9 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:55 pm

d_money wrote:The only compelling argument for Baines is he’s #34 on all time RBI list. Other than that, I can’t see it.


I'd say you could argue that without the 2 work stoppages he would have had 3,000 hits and 400 Hrs (maybe) which at one point were pretty solid bell weathers. He wouldn't have made my list but it's unfortunate that a player who was always such a class act is now subjected to a constant barrage of criticism for a situation that is in no part his doing.
0 x
Stone added: "Lou's probably grumpy, because he only went 3-for-11 against me with no RBIs."

Gmoney08
All-Star
Posts: 1291
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:08 am
x 81
x 201

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby Gmoney08 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:15 pm

cwood218 wrote:
champaignchris wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
I never understand this.


...They’re objectively less valuable than your league average #3 starting pitcher.


This is my problem with putting them in the Hall. You can take any teams top 3 or 4 starters and you would have the same or better results than the best relievers. Anytime 100+ players are equal or better than you ... you're not a HOFer.


Meh I doubt many teams have a 3 starter that just converts to as dominant as guys like Edwin Diaz, Britton, Chapman, Andrew Miller, Jansen and Kimbrel have been the last few years. There is a couple 3 starters with especially nasty stuff that might be able to touch that dominance as a reliever but there isnt one on every team.
0 x

champaignchris
Starter
Posts: 903
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:40 pm
x 8
x 198

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby champaignchris » Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:34 am

Gmoney08 wrote:
cwood218 wrote:
champaignchris wrote:
...They’re objectively less valuable than your league average #3 starting pitcher.


This is my problem with putting them in the Hall. You can take any teams top 3 or 4 starters and you would have the same or better results than the best relievers. Anytime 100+ players are equal or better than you ... you're not a HOFer.


Meh I doubt many teams have a 3 starter that just converts to as dominant as guys like Edwin Diaz, Britton, Chapman, Andrew Miller, Jansen and Kimbrel have been the last few years. There is a couple 3 starters with especially nasty stuff that might be able to touch that dominance as a reliever but there isnt one on every team.


There have been a ton of #3 or #4-ish guys to switch to closer and have 5 or 6 years as dominating relievers. Wade Davis springs to mind. Jason Isringhausen is another. Andrew Miller from your post is another good example. Jansen or Chapman do what they’ve been doing for another 5 or so years and we can talk about the Hall of Fame.
0 x

User avatar
Sammy Sofa
Licks Butts
Posts: 83732
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:45 am
Location: Washington DC
x 14426
x 16960

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby Sammy Sofa » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:26 pm

But nobody's talking about putting someone in just because they have a few years as a dominating reliever.
0 x
► Show Spoiler

CubinNY
Hall of Fame
Posts: 23322
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: Pike Road, Al
x 372
x 763

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby CubinNY » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:47 am

I remember back in the day my Sox friends saying they’d take Baines over Sammy
0 x

Bull
Formerly MrWood
Posts: 3987
Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 3:54 pm
Location: Not St Louis anymore!
x 213
x 500

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby Bull » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:42 pm

CubinNY wrote:I remember back in the day my Sox friends saying they’d take Baines over Sammy

Mine too. This is proof they were right.
0 x

champaignchris
Starter
Posts: 903
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:40 pm
x 8
x 198

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby champaignchris » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:43 pm

I've been trying to think of a stat that's better than saves or WAR in terms of how to measure the value of relief pitchers and figured out that Win Probability Added might do the trick since, among other things, it takes leverage into account.

Here's the top 10 relievers (made more appearances in relief than starting) in WPA all-time (rank among all pitchers in parens):

1. Rivera 56.59 (5) - Clemens, Grove, Maddux and Spahn are the only guys ahead of him!
2. Hoffman 34.15 (22)
3. Gossage 32.51 (29)
4. Eckersly 30.85 (31)
5. Wilhelm 30.84 (32)
6. Nathan 30.60 (34)
7. Wagner 30.07 (38)
8. Papelbon 28.31 (41)
9. F. Rodriguez 24.43 (56)
10. Kimbrell 24.33 (57)

L. Smith 21.33 (78th), Sutter 18.25 (102nd) and Fingers 16.19 (125th) are the other HOF relievers.

This tells me the following:
1. Mariano Rivera laps the field by pretty much any metric you want to use in measuring relievers.
2. My reservations about Hoffman are off-base. He belongs.
3. There aren't any big surprises on this list and probably aren't any old forgotten relievers who deserve re-consideration now that we understand the value of bullpens more.
1 x

User avatar
OleMissCub
Hall of Fame
Posts: 38007
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:32 am
x 1383
x 1760

Re: Lee Smith, Harold Baines elected to HOF

Postby OleMissCub » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:48 am

champaignchris wrote:I've been trying to think of a stat that's better than saves or WAR in terms of how to measure the value of relief pitchers and figured out that Win Probability Added might do the trick since, among other things, it takes leverage into account.

Here's the top 10 relievers (made more appearances in relief than starting) in WPA all-time (rank among all pitchers in parens):

1. Rivera 56.59 (5) - Clemens, Grove, Maddux and Spahn are the only guys ahead of him!
2. Hoffman 34.15 (22)
3. Gossage 32.51 (29)
4. Eckersly 30.85 (31)
5. Wilhelm 30.84 (32)
6. Nathan 30.60 (34)
7. Wagner 30.07 (38)
8. Papelbon 28.31 (41)
9. F. Rodriguez 24.43 (56)
10. Kimbrell 24.33 (57)

L. Smith 21.33 (78th), Sutter 18.25 (102nd) and Fingers 16.19 (125th) are the other HOF relievers.

This tells me the following:
1. Mariano Rivera laps the field by pretty much any metric you want to use in measuring relievers.
2. My reservations about Hoffman are off-base. He belongs.
3. There aren't any big surprises on this list and probably aren't any old forgotten relievers who deserve re-consideration now that we understand the value of bullpens more.


If the difference between the second best closer ever (Hoffman) and Billy Wagner is only 4 WAR, then maybe Rivera is the only one who belongs.
0 x


Return to “General Baseball Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: The_Achiever and 1 guest