The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Discussion about other teams, non-cubs players, baseball history, sabr vs scouting, etc.
User avatar
WrigleyField 22
Superstar
Posts: 12588
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: hnderstabxcwhsg
x 1798
x 874

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:56 am

jersey cubs fan wrote:8 years for free agency is awful
Unless you want to guarantee owners make much greater profit

8 would be okay if it was from the time they were drafted at age 18. They'd hit FA at 26. Basically 4 minor league control years and 4 major league control years.

Minor ammendment to my prior proposal. As soon as a player enters onto the 40 man, they are effectively treated as major leaguers and enter the rookie year salary + arbitration process; basically one rookie year scale + 4 arbitration years + final restricted right FA/arbitration year, followed by full unencumbered FA. Teams still get those 3 option years on the 40 man, which would obviously hurt a player's arbitration earnings, but not their FA timeline. Means a player would hit FA as soon as 23 or as late as 28 (assuming they were never exposed to Rule 5 or DFA).
0 x
Image

User avatar
Banedon
Curse You!
Posts: 67064
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:36 pm
Location: Kidding Myself
x 5762
x 5573

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby Banedon » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:02 pm

Sammys Boombox wrote:
Hairyducked Idiot wrote:All teams nationalized and forcibly turned into worker collectives.


Change name to NationalSocialisticBaseball.com


Sulley would be so mad.
0 x

User avatar
minnesotacubsfan
Superstar
Posts: 17078
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 2:27 pm
Location: da Salish Sea
x 1248
x 685

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:51 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:I have no idea how you'd pull it off, but man, kick the stupid drafting and rookie contract systems out and set it up so that everyone is just a FA when they show up. The bigger teams can't buy EVERYONE.

Alright, now tell me why i'm dumb and this would lead to anarchy and madness.



I love anarchy and madness. Where theres confusion, theres opportunity
1 x
Image

User avatar
minnesotacubsfan
Superstar
Posts: 17078
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 2:27 pm
Location: da Salish Sea
x 1248
x 685

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:09 pm

TomtheBombadil wrote:Kasper’s great but the ceiling (aka cap) idea is not cool unless I’m misunderstanding

Big fan of incentivizing winning



How tho? Teams will only win with the players they have and the managements ability to put those players in the best position to win. Winning cant JUST be about draft position because the players currently on a roster wont give a horsefeathers about the next phenom. The players themselves have to be rewarded as well.

What about a kind of legacy pension? A way to reward guys like Rizzo who, as they get older, are worth less wins but are rewarded for their youthful service and wins later in their career. It would also keep teams like the Red Sox from reloading year after year and force a churn in the league, teams rising and falling. I realize that this is closer to the old process of rewarding older players (like the Cubs did for years) on the down slope of their careers, but making it easy for the big 4 every year to crush smaller markets gets old.

Unfortunately the competitiveness of any pro sport will always lead to those owners/managers who want to win learning how to game any system, I fear.
0 x
Image

BigSlick
Superstar
Posts: 14287
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:04 pm
x 2777
x 471

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby BigSlick » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:22 pm

The greatest distorting effect on baseball is the fact that teams get the first 7 years of a players career without letting them test free agency. For 90% of players their peak years will be in those years.

I don’t know what would happen if we totally abolished that 7 year standard, but it would get weird and interesting and I’m here for it.
0 x
Image
"The only good sabermetrician is a dead one." --Andrew Jackson, 1776.

I have to admit its getting better...it can't get no worse - The Beatles (On the Cubs)

User avatar
minnesotacubsfan
Superstar
Posts: 17078
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 2:27 pm
Location: da Salish Sea
x 1248
x 685

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:26 pm

TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:
playing football is basically homicide, and college football is even worse because kids are killing themselves for no reason

.



No true. College players are killing themselves for the impossible chance that they get to kill themselves for a very small portion of the overall money later.
1 x
Image

BigSlick
Superstar
Posts: 14287
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:04 pm
x 2777
x 471

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby BigSlick » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:36 pm

Football all around is depressing

High School Football players are killing themselves for the chance to play at a top school for the infinitesmal chance to play in the NFL where the majority of former players go bankrupt
0 x
Image
"The only good sabermetrician is a dead one." --Andrew Jackson, 1776.

I have to admit its getting better...it can't get no worse - The Beatles (On the Cubs)

Bertz
All-Star
Posts: 1048
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:59 pm
x 425
x 575

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby Bertz » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:50 pm

I think in general, simpler is better. If you have a complicated system, it will 100% favor management as compared to it's simple equivalent. Keeping that in mind, here's what I would fight for if I were the MLBPA

1. Years of control are now like minor league options. It's no longer based on days it's a binary yes/no did you appear in the majors in a given year

2. Raise the major league minimum to $1m and then set it to rise with revenue

3. Start arbitration a year earlier, so it goes Min/Min/20%/40%/60%/80%

Not exactly revolutionary, but they're changes that IMO would help a lot while still being something you could see all being included in the next CBA.
1 x

User avatar
Bluescale
All-Star
Posts: 3081
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:44 pm
Location: Eugene, OR
x 387
x 180
Contact:

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby Bluescale » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:00 pm

I really like the idea of control starting when a player becomes a pro. Let control be 7 or 8 years, but that includes your time in the minors. It would disincentivise things like keeping players like Vlad Jr. down in the minors just because. That doesn't fix everything, but it's a good first step.
2 x
A toast to Darrel Sink - a lifelong Cubs fan. You'll be missed.

User avatar
David
Inner-Circle HOF
Posts: 61357
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:33 am
Location: Chicago
x 8570
x 5138

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby David » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:13 pm

My answer would be way radical and probably has a million holes in it. Also, I'm literally making this up as I type it.

Have like a $1M base salary for all big leaguers. Every player's pay each season is based on some agreed upon measure of value from the previous season's performance (like some standardized version of WAR with a win valuation scaled based on how much money the league is making).

If a team doesn't want to pay full price for the past season's performance, the player is opted into restricted free agency and the open market can determine his value, regardless of how much service time he has. Current team can either agree to pay what another team offered or let him go to that team.

I don't really know how you solve the problem that some organizations make way more money than others, though. I hate the idea of a salary cap for a multitude of reasons.

Like I said, I'm sure there's a lot wrong with this and a ton I'm not accounting for. And coming up with a statistical measure of performance that everyone could agree on would be a disastrous undertaking, unfortunately.

Oh, and pay minor leaguers something reasonable and provide them quality food and housing and all that. This is such a minimal investment that would have no downside for organizations.


I just hate how the current system is literally set up to pay crappy old guys the most money for years into their crappy oldness.
1 x
Image

The Cubs’ transaction list under Epstein and Hoyer reads like a work of fiction, a wish-fulfillment list composed in hindsight.

User avatar
minnesotacubsfan
Superstar
Posts: 17078
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 2:27 pm
Location: da Salish Sea
x 1248
x 685

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:48 pm

PackLandVA wrote:
TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:the big 3 sports are in a real weird spot right now to be honest

everyone knows now (and some decent percentage of us care) that seemingly every team owner sucks to some large degree. Like billionaires who want to do well spend their money in ways that aren't on sports teams. so the pool of billionaires willing to buy sports teams are all awful people.

social media lets us know that most of our athletes are dick heads in a way that makes (some of) us actually have to mentally confront this fact

playing football is basically homicide, and college football is even worse because kids are killing themselves for no reason

the baseball season is interminably long

not only is the nba season too long but there's 0 reason to watch a game until the 4th quarter.



I gonna put one on a tee for ya', TBS:


The Packers don't have an owner. Unless you want to count their more than 360k stockholders as owners.

They are a non-profit corporation, the only in American professional sports. They're (business) run by a board of directors and only Mark Murphy collects a salary. Here's something that's great: they the only American major-league sports franchise to release its financial balance sheet every year.



I hate the packers and would love nothing more then to see them die a slow painful death, but I would feel so much better about professional sports if their ownership mode was the norm instead of the anomaly.
1 x
Image

davell
Hall of Fame
Posts: 21380
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:55 pm
x 1808
x 2291

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby davell » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:00 pm

Bluescale wrote:I really like the idea of control starting when a player becomes a pro. Let control be 7 or 8 years, but that includes your time in the minors. It would disincentivise things like keeping players like Vlad Jr. down in the minors just because. That doesn't fix everything, but it's a good first step.


It also REALLY devalues High School players draft position. No team is taking those guys anywhere remotely early, unless they're a Griffey type talent. You're not drafting guys you think you're getting 2-3 years out of, at best. When the alternative is 4-5 years of major league time out of college players.
0 x
Additional rule: you have to have one or the other.The only exception is you have an amazing board name. davell, I'm looking at you; put up a [expletive] avatar or something if your name only sounds like somebody tried say Dave as they lapsed into a coma.

User avatar
WrigleyField 22
Superstar
Posts: 12588
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: hnderstabxcwhsg
x 1798
x 874

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:19 pm

davell wrote:
Bluescale wrote:I really like the idea of control starting when a player becomes a pro. Let control be 7 or 8 years, but that includes your time in the minors. It would disincentivise things like keeping players like Vlad Jr. down in the minors just because. That doesn't fix everything, but it's a good first step.


It also REALLY devalues High School players draft position. No team is taking those guys anywhere remotely early, unless they're a Griffey type talent. You're not drafting guys you think you're getting 2-3 years out of, at best. When the alternative is 4-5 years of major league time out of college players.

Do my idea and make it an early entry only system then. College players enter as FA, same as an international FA would.
0 x
Image

davell
Hall of Fame
Posts: 21380
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:55 pm
x 1808
x 2291

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby davell » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:19 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
davell wrote:
Bluescale wrote:I really like the idea of control starting when a player becomes a pro. Let control be 7 or 8 years, but that includes your time in the minors. It would disincentivise things like keeping players like Vlad Jr. down in the minors just because. That doesn't fix everything, but it's a good first step.


It also REALLY devalues High School players draft position. No team is taking those guys anywhere remotely early, unless they're a Griffey type talent. You're not drafting guys you think you're getting 2-3 years out of, at best. When the alternative is 4-5 years of major league time out of college players.

Do my idea and make it an early entry only system then. College players enter as FA, same as an international FA would.


I'd absolutely love it if it was every team for themselves, sign who you want type of thing. But, there's literally zero chance they go that direction.
0 x
Additional rule: you have to have one or the other.The only exception is you have an amazing board name. davell, I'm looking at you; put up a [expletive] avatar or something if your name only sounds like somebody tried say Dave as they lapsed into a coma.

User avatar
WrigleyField 22
Superstar
Posts: 12588
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: hnderstabxcwhsg
x 1798
x 874

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:46 pm

davell wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:
davell wrote:
It also REALLY devalues High School players draft position. No team is taking those guys anywhere remotely early, unless they're a Griffey type talent. You're not drafting guys you think you're getting 2-3 years out of, at best. When the alternative is 4-5 years of major league time out of college players.

Do my idea and make it an early entry only system then. College players enter as FA, same as an international FA would.


I'd absolutely love it if it was every team for themselves, sign who you want type of thing. But, there's literally zero chance they go that direction.

My magic wand says otherwise.
0 x
Image

User avatar
Sammys Boombox
Formerly eb14play2
Posts: 6317
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:52 pm
Location: Kansas City, MO
x 1249
x 593

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby Sammys Boombox » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:20 pm

I haven’t read all of the ideas, but when it comes to draft order I would prefer the teams are broken into 3 sets of 10. The 10 teams with the BEST records to miss the playoffs get the first 10 picks, then the bottom 10 teams get picks 11-20 and the 10 teams that make the playoffs get 21-30.

The team with the best record that missed the playoffs gets pick 1. To make it simple, let’s assume that the 10 teams with the 10 best records all make the playoffs.

And make draft picks tradeable.

Draft order based on overall place from previous season:
#1 11
#2 12
....
#10 20
#11 30
#12 29
...
#20 21
#21 10
#22 9
...
#30 1

I can’t think of a much better incentive to avoid tanking.
0 x
CUBS PACKERS MIZZOU

User avatar
Bluescale
All-Star
Posts: 3081
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:44 pm
Location: Eugene, OR
x 387
x 180
Contact:

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby Bluescale » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:53 pm

davell wrote:It also REALLY devalues High School players draft position. No team is taking those guys anywhere remotely early, unless they're a Griffey type talent. You're not drafting guys you think you're getting 2-3 years out of, at best. When the alternative is 4-5 years of major league time out of college players.


Yeah, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Most high school kids get chewed up by the system, and 10 years later have nothing to show for it. Granted, this gives the NCAA more power, which is never a good thing, but kids going from high school to the minor leagues usually doesn’t end well for the kids.
0 x
A toast to Darrel Sink - a lifelong Cubs fan. You'll be missed.

davell
Hall of Fame
Posts: 21380
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:55 pm
x 1808
x 2291

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby davell » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:00 pm

Bluescale wrote:
davell wrote:It also REALLY devalues High School players draft position. No team is taking those guys anywhere remotely early, unless they're a Griffey type talent. You're not drafting guys you think you're getting 2-3 years out of, at best. When the alternative is 4-5 years of major league time out of college players.


Yeah, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Most high school kids get chewed up by the system, and 10 years later have nothing to show for it. Granted, this gives the NCAA more power, which is never a good thing, but kids going from high school to the minor leagues usually doesn’t end well for the kids.


Neither does going to college though lol. Most of the higher ranked HS kids that wind up in college, wind up getting less money than they would have, if they'd have turned early.

There's no easy solution. But, in all honesty, I don't see amateur players being a big part of the next CBA.

After looking at Bertz' idea..... Its just tweaking some things. An extra year of arb, a bit more minimum salary...... Personally, I think the players need more than this, but its not a horrible compromise.

In the end, a lot just depends on what EXACTLY the players are wanting.
0 x
Additional rule: you have to have one or the other.The only exception is you have an amazing board name. davell, I'm looking at you; put up a [expletive] avatar or something if your name only sounds like somebody tried say Dave as they lapsed into a coma.

CubinNY
Hall of Fame
Posts: 22724
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: Pike Road, Al
x 275
x 581

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby CubinNY » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:59 pm

davell wrote:
Bluescale wrote:
davell wrote:It also REALLY devalues High School players draft position. No team is taking those guys anywhere remotely early, unless they're a Griffey type talent. You're not drafting guys you think you're getting 2-3 years out of, at best. When the alternative is 4-5 years of major league time out of college players.


Yeah, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Most high school kids get chewed up by the system, and 10 years later have nothing to show for it. Granted, this gives the NCAA more power, which is never a good thing, but kids going from high school to the minor leagues usually doesn’t end well for the kids.


Neither does going to college though lol. Most of the higher ranked HS kids that wind up in college, wind up getting less money than they would have, if they'd have turned early.

There's no easy solution. But, in all honesty, I don't see amateur players being a big part of the next CBA.

After looking at Bertz' idea..... Its just tweaking some things. An extra year of arb, a bit more minimum salary...... Personally, I think the players need more than this, but its not a horrible compromise.

In the end, a lot just depends on what EXACTLY the players are wanting.

Right, the player's union has no interest in doing anything about people who are not part of the union. The minor league players need to unionize.
1 x

biittner77
Superstar
Posts: 10626
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:10 am
Location: Maryland's Eastern Shore
x 16
x 239

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby biittner77 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:37 pm

Lots of ideas here about how to spend other people's money. Any change that results in higher pay for the players will result in higher prices for tickets, parking etc. The owners are not going to make less money. They just aren't. Debate all you want how much that sucks but that's how it's always going to be. But here's an idea: have a relegation system whereby every 5 years, the 3 owners with the fewest wins have to sell their teams to someone else.

Are far as avoiding tanking, a draft lottery among non playoff teams would help that. Make it the same chance for all non playoff teams to get the number one pick. There would be no incentive to tank. Such a system would not punish mediocrity the way the current system does. Then let teams trade draft picks. The NFL draft is more exciting because teams move up and down and collect picks.
0 x
snoodmonger wrote:Schwarber dong was as swaggy a dong as you're gonna see, fellas. If he'd dropped the bat cleanly, it would've jumped up and flipped itself.

squally1313
All-Star
Posts: 3379
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:34 pm
x 1028
x 1132

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby squally1313 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:39 pm

1 x

User avatar
SouthSideRyan
is ELL
Posts: 49724
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:08 am
Location: South Loop
x 601
x 1634

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby SouthSideRyan » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:42 pm

biittner77 wrote:Lots of ideas here about how to spend other people's money. Any change that results in higher pay for the players will result in higher prices for tickets, parking etc. The owners are not going to make less money. They just aren't. Debate all you want how much that sucks but that's how it's always going to be.


Can’t win don’t try got it.

also leave the ghoulish billionaires alone you stupid jerks
1 x
Exile on Waveland wrote: IU smells like poop.

User avatar
jersey cubs fan
Inner-Circle HOF
Posts: 60236
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:38 pm
Location: Hoboken squat cobbler
x 2807
x 9768

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby jersey cubs fan » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:42 pm

biittner77 wrote:Lots of ideas here about how to spend other people's money. Any change that results in higher pay for the players will result in higher prices for tickets, parking etc.


Just freaking stop right there.
0 x
longhotsummer wrote:I realize now, any opposing viewpoint, will not be tolerated.

User avatar
SouthSideRyan
is ELL
Posts: 49724
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:08 am
Location: South Loop
x 601
x 1634

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby SouthSideRyan » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:43 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:
biittner77 wrote:Lots of ideas here about how to spend other people's money. Any change that results in higher pay for the players will result in higher prices for tickets, parking etc.


Just freaking stop right there.


The first sentence was enough.
3 x
Exile on Waveland wrote: IU smells like poop.

User avatar
JudasIscariotTheBird
All-Star
Posts: 4014
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 6:05 am
Location: Denver, CO
x 3847
x 1650

Re: The Business of Baseball (AKA never side with management)

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:45 pm

biittner77 wrote:Lots of ideas here about how to spend other people's money. Any change that results in higher pay for the players will result in higher prices for tickets, parking etc. The owners are not going to make less money. They just aren't. Debate all you want how much that sucks but that's how it's always going to be.

Image
2 x
"None of these signal alarm bells to me"-Boris
"Sublime was driven by their frontman, who was, quite probably, a musical savant." -RIP Stannis
(Formerly Diceman4221)


Return to “General Baseball Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ED1313 and 3 guests