Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby sneakypower » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:28 pm

imho they should be completely stripped of the '17 WS title if there's many more instances of what's happening in that Gattis video
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby sneakypower » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:39 pm

adding to this as a comparison, AL slugging on 3-0 counts was .818 from 2015-2017

it's very difficult to overstate what an insane advantage it is to be essentially told the pitches
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:46 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:Let's face it: it's mostly "cheating" as opposed to actual cheating, since the not really-rules are hinged on old-timey nonsense that treats cameras like sorcery that will steal someone's soul.


No setting up a system with cameras in your home park so you can instantly relay signs to a hitter is capital C cheating. I'm not even sure there's a huge benefit(lots of hitters have said they don't even want that information), but when you're systematically getting it in a way that isn't possible for the opponent to do so because it's your home park, it's cheating.


Nah. It's dumb for catchers and pitchers to still communicate that way 20 [expletive] years deep into the 21st Century. At worst it's motivation for the game to update something that should have been updated god knows how many years ago. It's such a ridiculous blind spot it basically deserves to be exploited (and visiting teams can exploit pretty damn easily, too).

Hit like to subscribe and get my follow up theory: A [expletive] pitch clock would pretty much fix all of this.


It's the asymmetry that matters to me, I don't particularly care that they're trying to get signs. Steal all the signs you want, but if you're using your home park to do it in a way your opponent physically can't, that crosses the line for me.
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby Andy » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:48 pm

soccer10k wrote:Ok Mike, now tell us how their pitchers are cheating also.

Yeah, I would be interested in a follow-up to see if they can get anyone to talk about Trevor Bauer's accusations (and his attempt to prove them by doing whatever he did in the first inning of a start once).



Ironically, I guess Fiers has been accused of doctoring the ball the night of his no-hitter, which wasn't mentioned in that article.
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby Bryant's Disco Ball » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:06 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
No setting up a system with cameras in your home park so you can instantly relay signs to a hitter is capital C cheating. I'm not even sure there's a huge benefit(lots of hitters have said they don't even want that information), but when you're systematically getting it in a way that isn't possible for the opponent to do so because it's your home park, it's cheating.


Nah. It's dumb for catchers and pitchers to still communicate that way 20 [expletive] years deep into the 21st Century. At worst it's motivation for the game to update something that should have been updated god knows how many years ago. It's such a ridiculous blind spot it basically deserves to be exploited (and visiting teams can exploit pretty damn easily, too).

Hit like to subscribe and get my follow up theory: A [expletive] pitch clock would pretty much fix all of this.


It's the asymmetry that matters to me, I don't particularly care that they're trying to get signs. Steal all the signs you want, but if you're using your home park to do it in a way your opponent physically can't, that crosses the line for me.


Yup. Big-time. Anybody passing this off as just good old-fashioned cheating has it way wrong. This is a different territory all together.
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Not saying it will happen, but the Cubs coming back from a 3-1 deficit to win the World Series does seem like the appropriate way to cap off this season and make the 30-for-30 even better.

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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:17 pm

sneakypower wrote:......
it's very difficult to overstate what an insane advantage it is to be essentially told the pitches


if you had time to sit and prepare for the pitch, sure, but the video seemed to show the batter getting the info just before the pitcher goes into windup. There's not a whole lotta time to adjust to a pitch at the point, and thats where it can be detrimental to the batter rather then helpful. The only caveat is if the batter is sitting change up the ENTIRE AB and is told when one is coming, THEN he has a huge advantage.
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:28 pm

Bryant's Disco Ball wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
Nah. It's dumb for catchers and pitchers to still communicate that way 20 [expletive] years deep into the 21st Century. At worst it's motivation for the game to update something that should have been updated god knows how many years ago. It's such a ridiculous blind spot it basically deserves to be exploited (and visiting teams can exploit pretty damn easily, too).

Hit like to subscribe and get my follow up theory: A [expletive] pitch clock would pretty much fix all of this.


It's the asymmetry that matters to me, I don't particularly care that they're trying to get signs. Steal all the signs you want, but if you're using your home park to do it in a way your opponent physically can't, that crosses the line for me.


Yup. Big-time. Anybody passing this off as just good old-fashioned cheating has it way wrong. This is a different territory all together.


It's the optics more than anything else; it's not realistically THAT much of an advantage, if at all, most of the time. It's more along the lines, IMO, of corking the bat, where the perceived/actual benefits are far more dwarfed by he risk/work involved.
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby Ding Dong Johnson » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:32 pm

minnesotacubsfan wrote:
sneakypower wrote:......
it's very difficult to overstate what an insane advantage it is to be essentially told the pitches


if you had time to sit and prepare for the pitch, sure, but the video seemed to show the batter getting the info just before the pitcher goes into windup. There's not a whole lotta time to adjust to a pitch at the point, and thats where it can be detrimental to the batter rather then helpful. The only caveat is if the batter is sitting change up the ENTIRE AB and is told when one is coming, THEN he has a huge advantage.

A pitcher's windup is more than enough time to prepare for a specific pitch type.
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby Banedon » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:36 pm

Here's a whole thread of these.

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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby chopsx9 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:46 pm

Brian wrote:Javy is the 2018 MVP now

Always was, my friend, always was.
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby Bryant's Disco Ball » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:50 pm

minnesotacubsfan wrote:
sneakypower wrote:......
it's very difficult to overstate what an insane advantage it is to be essentially told the pitches


if you had time to sit and prepare for the pitch, sure, but the video seemed to show the batter getting the info just before the pitcher goes into windup. There's not a whole lotta time to adjust to a pitch at the point, and thats where it can be detrimental to the batter rather then helpful. The only caveat is if the batter is sitting change up the ENTIRE AB and is told when one is coming, THEN he has a huge advantage.


The only reason why I disagree is that if it didn't work very well or didn't help much at all, they wouldn't have kept doing it.
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Not saying it will happen, but the Cubs coming back from a 3-1 deficit to win the World Series does seem like the appropriate way to cap off this season and make the 30-for-30 even better.

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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:55 pm

Bryant's Disco Ball wrote:
minnesotacubsfan wrote:
sneakypower wrote:......
it's very difficult to overstate what an insane advantage it is to be essentially told the pitches


if you had time to sit and prepare for the pitch, sure, but the video seemed to show the batter getting the info just before the pitcher goes into windup. There's not a whole lotta time to adjust to a pitch at the point, and thats where it can be detrimental to the batter rather then helpful. The only caveat is if the batter is sitting change up the ENTIRE AB and is told when one is coming, THEN he has a huge advantage.


The only reason why I disagree is that if it didn't work very well or didn't help much at all, they wouldn't have kept doing it.



That's where I wonder if the Astros were combining with scouting reports, ie they knew the WS pitcher threw hit-able change-ups, and thus were pinpointing that one pitch with the batter. In other words, telling their guys to sit change-up, and wait for the signal. They could expand that method to every team they play, every pitcher they face, by adjusting the batters expectations (ie sit change, sit FB) as they went. I mean, to me, its hard to lambast the level of dedication to win by using all sources available. I wish TheoCo would do that for KB, or better yet, Javy
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby Regular Show » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:01 pm


This horsefeathering liar...
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:09 pm

Bryant's Disco Ball wrote:
minnesotacubsfan wrote:
sneakypower wrote:......
it's very difficult to overstate what an insane advantage it is to be essentially told the pitches


if you had time to sit and prepare for the pitch, sure, but the video seemed to show the batter getting the info just before the pitcher goes into windup. There's not a whole lotta time to adjust to a pitch at the point, and thats where it can be detrimental to the batter rather then helpful. The only caveat is if the batter is sitting change up the ENTIRE AB and is told when one is coming, THEN he has a huge advantage.


The only reason why I disagree is that if it didn't work very well or didn't help much at all, they wouldn't have kept doing it.


How can you say this with a straight face about anything in baseball just solely based on the fact that Albert Almora exists.
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby sneakypower » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:10 pm

minnesotacubsfan wrote:
sneakypower wrote:......
it's very difficult to overstate what an insane advantage it is to be essentially told the pitches


if you had time to sit and prepare for the pitch, sure, but the video seemed to show the batter getting the info just before the pitcher goes into windup. There's not a whole lotta time to adjust to a pitch at the point, and thats where it can be detrimental to the batter rather then helpful. The only caveat is if the batter is sitting change up the ENTIRE AB and is told when one is coming, THEN he has a huge advantage.

lol gtfo if Kris Bryant knew when changeups were coming he'd slug 1000
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby David » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:15 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Bryant's Disco Ball wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
It's the asymmetry that matters to me, I don't particularly care that they're trying to get signs. Steal all the signs you want, but if you're using your home park to do it in a way your opponent physically can't, that crosses the line for me.


Yup. Big-time. Anybody passing this off as just good old-fashioned cheating has it way wrong. This is a different territory all together.


It's the optics more than anything else; it's not realistically THAT much of an advantage, if at all, most of the time. It's more along the lines, IMO, of corking the bat, where the perceived/actual benefits are far more dwarfed by he risk/work involved.


Without doing any research on the matter at all, I don't think that comparison is even remotely close to accurate.

I think the sign stealing presents a substantial advantage and I'm pretty sure corked bats actually hurt rather than help (which you sort of alluded to), at least in terms of power/hitting distance.
Last edited by David on Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby Andy » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:17 pm

Banedon wrote:Here's a whole thread of these.


In retrospect it's hard to believe no one caught this earlier. It's so obvious.
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:19 pm

sneakypower wrote:
minnesotacubsfan wrote:
sneakypower wrote:......
it's very difficult to overstate what an insane advantage it is to be essentially told the pitches


if you had time to sit and prepare for the pitch, sure, but the video seemed to show the batter getting the info just before the pitcher goes into windup. There's not a whole lotta time to adjust to a pitch at the point, and thats where it can be detrimental to the batter rather then helpful. The only caveat is if the batter is sitting change up the ENTIRE AB and is told when one is coming, THEN he has a huge advantage.

lol gtfo if Kris Bryant knew when changeups were coming he'd slug 1000


I know! Thats why I wish the Cubs did the same for him!
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby David » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:19 pm

i guess it doesn't matter because people didn't really notice this but you'd think they'd use some kind of electronic vibrating thing that the hitter would wear or something instead of just banging loudly
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby sneakypower » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:21 pm

Andy wrote:
Banedon wrote:Here's a whole thread of these.


In retrospect it's hard to believe no one caught this earlier. It's so obvious.

October 16th:
For several years, widespread suspicion has followed the Astros about aggressive sign stealing, especially at Minute Maid Park. Although most teams engage in some form of this activity, several executives and current and former players said on Wednesday that whistling was over the line.
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:22 pm

David wrote:i guess it doesn't matter because people didn't really notice this but you'd think they'd use some kind of electronic vibrating thing that the hitter would wear or something instead of just banging loudly


put a pager gyro on the mans neck swag
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby jersey cubs fan » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:26 pm

minnesotacubsfan wrote:
sneakypower wrote:......
it's very difficult to overstate what an insane advantage it is to be essentially told the pitches


if you had time to sit and prepare for the pitch, sure, but the video seemed to show the batter getting the info just before the pitcher goes into windup. There's not a whole lotta time to adjust to a pitch at the point, and thats where it can be detrimental to the batter rather then helpful. The only caveat is if the batter is sitting change up the ENTIRE AB and is told when one is coming, THEN he has a huge advantage.

Wait, what? That's not how batting works. You don't sit there and prepare for a specific pitch for a few minutes. Knowing before release that a changeup is coming would be a huge advantage. It both allows you to sit fastball if you don't hear banging, then expect off speed once you hear it. You don't need 5 minutes to think it over.
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:30 pm

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx? ... 1&sort=3,d

With sliders being thrown so hard now and the progression in pitch tunneling, knowing when one is coming is definitely a cheat code. The last 3 years the Astros are one of 2 teams that even have a positive value on sliders, and they are absolutely lapping the field with that positive value.
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:31 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:
minnesotacubsfan wrote:
sneakypower wrote:......
it's very difficult to overstate what an insane advantage it is to be essentially told the pitches


if you had time to sit and prepare for the pitch, sure, but the video seemed to show the batter getting the info just before the pitcher goes into windup. There's not a whole lotta time to adjust to a pitch at the point, and thats where it can be detrimental to the batter rather then helpful. The only caveat is if the batter is sitting change up the ENTIRE AB and is told when one is coming, THEN he has a huge advantage.

Wait, what? That's not how batting works. You don't sit there and prepare for a specific pitch for a few minutes. Knowing before release that a changeup is coming would be a huge advantage. It both allows you to sit fastball if you don't hear banging, then expect off speed once you hear it. You don't need 5 minutes to think it over.


Based on my very scientific analysis of how much I suck at The Show even when I guess the pitch, HARD DISAGREE.
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Re: Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

Postby squally1313 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:34 pm

Astros at home, 2017: .279/.340/.472 .812 OPS, 121 wRC
Astros on road, 2017: .284/.351/.483, .834 OPS, 121 wRC
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