NL DH by 2021?

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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:36 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:Tie it to the starting pitcher please.

I doubt there is much motivation for the AL teams to agree with that change, but perhaps that's what the NL adopts as a compromise, to get the rules closer, but keeping distinct rules. It would leave most of the "strategy" still there, until the NL just adopts full DH.

With the extra 26th man, the 3 batter RP rule, and a DH, I wonder how roster composition will begin to change. Seems like a lot more opportunity for really obscure and specialize players like pinch runners.
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby Rob » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:30 pm

Andy wrote:The DH is dumb and lame, but this fight was lost when the DH started becoming a regular thing at lower levels of the game and pitchers no longer bothered working on their hitting. Might as well just get it over with.


Yeah, I'm under no illusions. It's coming sooner rather than later. Honestly, the writing was on the wall as soon as the AL adopted it. Both leagues couldn't keep different rules forever, and the union would never agree to give up a well-paying job like the DH. And once interleague play became a thing, that really speed up the process.

Still, I'm allowed not to be happy about this. It's a dumb change.
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby David » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:35 pm

Rob wrote:
Andy wrote:The DH is dumb and lame, but this fight was lost when the DH started becoming a regular thing at lower levels of the game and pitchers no longer bothered working on their hitting. Might as well just get it over with.


Yeah, I'm under no illusions. It's coming sooner rather than later. Honestly, the writing was on the wall as soon as the AL adopted it. Both leagues couldn't keep different rules forever, and the union would never agree to give up a well-paying job like the DH. And once interleague play became a thing, that really speed up the process.

Still, I'm allowed not to be happy about this. It's a dumb change.


Huh?

I'd say that's some terrible speeding up considering it's been 23 years. And it's damn near 50 since the AL did it.

If anything, it's long overdue (based on the things you said). There's been nothing even a little fast about it, whether you like the DH or not.

It's been so insanely and illogically long that I am still in believe it when I see it mode.

Also - the NL would've adopted it in like 1981 if some guy (the owner of the Phillies) hadn't been out on a fishing trip and unreachable at the time of the vote.
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby jersey cubs fan » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:47 pm

Andy wrote:The DH is dumb and lame, but this fight was lost when the DH started becoming a regular thing at lower levels of the game and pitchers no longer bothered working on their hitting. Might as well just get it over with.

Pitchers don't suck at hitting because they don't work on it enough, they suck at it because hitting his hard and pitching gets better and better. Scrappy McJunkball could scratch out a hit or two against the scrubs that pitched in yesteryear, not because he put in the time and effort.
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby David » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:52 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:
Andy wrote:The DH is dumb and lame, but this fight was lost when the DH started becoming a regular thing at lower levels of the game and pitchers no longer bothered working on their hitting. Might as well just get it over with.

Pitchers don't suck at hitting because they don't work on it enough, they suck at it because hitting his hard and pitching gets better and better. Scrappy McJunkball could scratch out a hit or two against the scrubs that pitched in yesteryear, not because he put in the time and effort.


Right, and pitchers are the only guys on the field who are there almost entirely for their extremely valuable contribution to run prevention. Just about everyone else advanced in the game because of what they can do for run scoring primarily.

The dudes who have both the natural talent to hit MLB pitching well and pitch well to MLB hitters are beyond absurdly rare.
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby Andy » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:02 pm

David wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:
Andy wrote:The DH is dumb and lame, but this fight was lost when the DH started becoming a regular thing at lower levels of the game and pitchers no longer bothered working on their hitting. Might as well just get it over with.

Pitchers don't suck at hitting because they don't work on it enough, they suck at it because hitting his hard and pitching gets better and better. Scrappy McJunkball could scratch out a hit or two against the scrubs that pitched in yesteryear, not because he put in the time and effort.


Right, and pitchers are the only guys on the field who are there almost entirely for their extremely valuable contribution to run prevention. Just about everyone else advanced in the game because of what they can do for run scoring primarily.

The dudes who have both the natural talent to hit MLB pitching well and pitch well to MLB hitters are beyond absurdly rare.

These things are true, but if not for the DH being standard just about everywhere after high school they probably wouldn't be as utterly useless at the plate as they are now.
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby squally1313 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:09 pm

David wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:
Andy wrote:The DH is dumb and lame, but this fight was lost when the DH started becoming a regular thing at lower levels of the game and pitchers no longer bothered working on their hitting. Might as well just get it over with.

Pitchers don't suck at hitting because they don't work on it enough, they suck at it because hitting his hard and pitching gets better and better. Scrappy McJunkball could scratch out a hit or two against the scrubs that pitched in yesteryear, not because he put in the time and effort.


Right, and pitchers are the only guys on the field who are there almost entirely for their extremely valuable contribution to run prevention. Just about everyone else advanced in the game because of what they can do for run scoring primarily.

The dudes who have both the natural talent to hit MLB pitching well and pitch well to MLB hitters are beyond absurdly rare.


Out of curiosity, would you be in favor of adding a DH for the catcher spot as well?
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby David » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:14 pm

squally1313 wrote:
David wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:Pitchers don't suck at hitting because they don't work on it enough, they suck at it because hitting his hard and pitching gets better and better. Scrappy McJunkball could scratch out a hit or two against the scrubs that pitched in yesteryear, not because he put in the time and effort.


Right, and pitchers are the only guys on the field who are there almost entirely for their extremely valuable contribution to run prevention. Just about everyone else advanced in the game because of what they can do for run scoring primarily.

The dudes who have both the natural talent to hit MLB pitching well and pitch well to MLB hitters are beyond absurdly rare.


Out of curiosity, would you be in favor of adding a DH for the catcher spot as well?


Not to be flippant, but if catchers ever get to the point where their triple slash numbers all start with a .1, sure.
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby squally1313 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:49 pm

David wrote:
squally1313 wrote:
David wrote:
Right, and pitchers are the only guys on the field who are there almost entirely for their extremely valuable contribution to run prevention. Just about everyone else advanced in the game because of what they can do for run scoring primarily.

The dudes who have both the natural talent to hit MLB pitching well and pitch well to MLB hitters are beyond absurdly rare.


Out of curiosity, would you be in favor of adding a DH for the catcher spot as well?


Not to be flippant, but if catchers ever get to the point where their triple slash numbers all start with a .1, sure.


Just wondering what the line is. What about just a second DH for every team's weakest offensive player? Outside of football, pretty much every sport involves making decisions where you have to sacrifice offense for defense in putting the best team out there.

I like the strategy that comes with the pitcher spot. Being able to move it around in the line up, working with a limited amount of bench/bullpen options and figuring out the best way to maximize your limited chances at the plate. I don't think it puts the NL at an inherent disadvantage. There's an almost...free throw like quality to pitching to a pitcher. Just do your job and take the easy out. I'm aware none of these are great arguments, but given that there's like 3 effective full time DHs in baseball right now, I'd rather keep it as is with the strategy that comes with it. Games aren't going to suddenly become dong fests because all the NLs 1st guy off the bench gets 4 PAs a game now.
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby jersey cubs fan » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:51 pm

squally1313 wrote:, I'd rather keep it as is with the strategy that comes with it.


Why do people keep pretending there is strategy involved here?
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby squally1313 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:58 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:
squally1313 wrote:, I'd rather keep it as is with the strategy that comes with it.


Why do people keep pretending there is strategy involved here?


It's not rocket science by any means, but there is absolutely strategy when you are working with a 4-5 man bench, one of which typically being the backup catcher (and, as the Cubs love to do, another 1 or 2 nursing some sort of injury). I don't know a better way to search for these stats, but the NL had 4297 pinch hitting appearances, while the AL had 1366. That's 91 per AL team, so barely more than 1 every 2 games, vs 276 for NL teams.
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:00 pm

Because there is. How to sequence relievers and pinch hitters, when to sacrifice or double switch to optimize for the rest of the game, a big chunk of that goes away with a full time DH. You don't have to think it's some earth shaking difference, no one will tell you it's a completely different sport because of it. But on the other side of the coin, pitchers take like 4% of NL plate appearances, so there isn't some enormous cost being paid at the other end. And of course, tying the DH to the SP meets both goals and introduces other decision making elements around lineup and who plays DH.
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby sneakypower » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:10 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:
Andy wrote:The DH is dumb and lame, but this fight was lost when the DH started becoming a regular thing at lower levels of the game and pitchers no longer bothered working on their hitting. Might as well just get it over with.

Pitchers don't suck at hitting because they don't work on it enough, they suck at it because hitting his hard and pitching gets better and better. Scrappy McJunkball could scratch out a hit or two against the scrubs that pitched in yesteryear, not because he put in the time and effort.

also the league differences probably play a part in this- why really bother hitting practice as an AL pitcher? then if you happen move to the NL are a total horsefeathers show out there; Garza, Lester, Quintana

no reason whatsoever to have different rules for AL/NL
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby Bertz » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:15 pm

There's also the within-inning strategy as well, which I think is more interesting and always gets ignored in these convos. What I mean by that is from the pitcher's perspective, when do you utilize what is essentially an auto out? If there are two outs and the #8 hitter is coming up, do you work around him for a better chance at a clean inning, or do you attack the #8 guy to let you take on the top of the order with one out?

At this point I'm pro DH, but we're not losing nothing.
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby chopsx9 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:58 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:
squally1313 wrote:, I'd rather keep it as is with the strategy that comes with it.


Why do people keep pretending there is strategy involved here?


Because there is?

It's a lost battle and I've reconciled myself to that fact. I agree that it is stupid to have different rules in different leagues - which of course would have been just as easily fixed by eliminating the DH. AL managers refer to not having to worry about deciding whether to swap out pitchers when behind in a game all the time; so to say there is no strategy involved is absurd. You can argue about the value to the game about having to make those decisions but to say there is no strategy involved is disingenuous and undermines the integrity of any other point trying to be made. The continuation of the logic at play is then to simply have a fielding line up and a hitting line up - which I have to believe everyone would think would be an abomination. The simple litmus test for MYSELF is that this makes the game easier and to me that is just an indication that it is pandering to the masses. Lets move all outfield fences in 75 feet, start each inning with 1 out and a runner on 1st and second. We can have average scores akin to the NFL and games will last 90 minutes. My 2 cents as I sink down into the cold, welcoming water for the third time.
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby Derwood » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:17 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:
Andy wrote:The DH is dumb and lame, but this fight was lost when the DH started becoming a regular thing at lower levels of the game and pitchers no longer bothered working on their hitting. Might as well just get it over with.

Pitchers don't suck at hitting because they don't work on it enough, they suck at it because hitting his hard and pitching gets better and better. Scrappy McJunkball could scratch out a hit or two against the scrubs that pitched in yesteryear, not because he put in the time and effort.


Except that in high school (and travel ball), the pitchers are often also the best hitters, because they're the best athletes on the team. So pitchers don't inherently suck at hitting, they just get asked to stop doing it the second they turn pro
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby Bull » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:01 pm

Derwood wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:
Andy wrote:The DH is dumb and lame, but this fight was lost when the DH started becoming a regular thing at lower levels of the game and pitchers no longer bothered working on their hitting. Might as well just get it over with.

Pitchers don't suck at hitting because they don't work on it enough, they suck at it because hitting his hard and pitching gets better and better. Scrappy McJunkball could scratch out a hit or two against the scrubs that pitched in yesteryear, not because he put in the time and effort.


Except that in high school (and travel ball), the pitchers are often also the best hitters, because they're the best athletes on the team. So pitchers don't inherently suck at hitting, they just get asked to stop doing it the second they turn pro

It’s not because they get asked to stop doing it, it’s because they face world class hurlers instead of that guy from River City high.

It’s the same reason Michael Jordan couldn’t hit. Just because you the best ever at shooting a large inflated ball into a metal hoop, doesn’t mean you can hit a small hard ball with a stick at an world class level. Pitching is an entirely different skill than hitting.
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby Tim » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:04 pm

Bull wrote:
Derwood wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:Pitchers don't suck at hitting because they don't work on it enough, they suck at it because hitting his hard and pitching gets better and better. Scrappy McJunkball could scratch out a hit or two against the scrubs that pitched in yesteryear, not because he put in the time and effort.


Except that in high school (and travel ball), the pitchers are often also the best hitters, because they're the best athletes on the team. So pitchers don't inherently suck at hitting, they just get asked to stop doing it the second they turn pro

It’s not because they get asked to stop doing it, it’s because they face world class hurlers instead of that guy from River City high.

It’s the same reason Michael Jordan couldn’t hit. Just because you the best ever at shooting a large inflated ball into a metal hoop, doesn’t mean you can hit a small hard ball with a stick at an world class level. Pitching is an entirely different skill than hitting.

Michael Jordan hadn't seen a hard pitched baseball in like 10 years, went straight to AA and hit over .200 with a good walk rate. Take a top 10 draft pick straight out of high school and put them in AA in their first year and they might not do much better.
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby David » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:18 pm

Derwood wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:
Andy wrote:The DH is dumb and lame, but this fight was lost when the DH started becoming a regular thing at lower levels of the game and pitchers no longer bothered working on their hitting. Might as well just get it over with.

Pitchers don't suck at hitting because they don't work on it enough, they suck at it because hitting his hard and pitching gets better and better. Scrappy McJunkball could scratch out a hit or two against the scrubs that pitched in yesteryear, not because he put in the time and effort.


Except that in high school (and travel ball), the pitchers are often also the best hitters, because they're the best athletes on the team. So pitchers don't inherently suck at hitting, they just get asked to stop doing it the second they turn pro


no
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby Derwood » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:25 pm

David wrote:
Derwood wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:Pitchers don't suck at hitting because they don't work on it enough, they suck at it because hitting his hard and pitching gets better and better. Scrappy McJunkball could scratch out a hit or two against the scrubs that pitched in yesteryear, not because he put in the time and effort.


Except that in high school (and travel ball), the pitchers are often also the best hitters, because they're the best athletes on the team. So pitchers don't inherently suck at hitting, they just get asked to stop doing it the second they turn pro


no


Counter-point: yes
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby David » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:33 pm

Derwood wrote:
David wrote:
Derwood wrote:
Except that in high school (and travel ball), the pitchers are often also the best hitters, because they're the best athletes on the team. So pitchers don't inherently suck at hitting, they just get asked to stop doing it the second they turn pro


no


Counter-point: yes


they're two very different skills with very little overlap in terms of the traits that enable you to be MLB caliber at them. the guys who can do either one are exceedingly rare. the ones who can do both are almost by definition considerably more rare (they practically don't exist).
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby Regular Show » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:42 am

When we lost out on Shohei Ohtani (allegedly) because we didn't have a DH, well that sealed the deal for me. I used to be against the DH too, but that fight is over...

Theo is for a DH and I think most progressive GMs and execs in the NL are for it now. Allows you to play your best players even when they're a little banged up, or moving down the defensive spectrum as they get older. There was speculation the Phillies signed Harper to such a long-term contract because they knew the DH was coming.

I agree on doing a compromise and having the starting pitcher be paired with the DH. Yeah, the Zambranos and Bumgarners don't get to hit anymore, but you get better hitters into the lineup this way. If people here want the Cubs to sign Schwarber to an extension then this is a necessary step. I think Schwarber will have a big year this upcoming season.
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby Bote McBoteface » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:31 am

If you arent gonna trade him, which i hope and think we arent, sign Schwarber long term right now while we can still cite his defensive liability.
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:42 am

Rob wrote:.....and the union would never agree to give up a well-paying job like the DH. ..,



Lol wut
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Re: NL DH by 2021?

Postby David » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:35 am

minnesotacubsfan wrote:
Rob wrote:.....and the union would never agree to give up a well-paying job like the DH. ..,



Lol wut


Lol wut?
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