Politics & Current Events

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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu May 16, 2019 6:31 pm

Eggyolk wrote:I think she would get 10-20x the exposure with a strong performance on Fox than an interview with cenk unger.


Well, sure, if the only media outlet options were Fox News or TYT, this might be a viable argument for going on Fox. Fox does not have, fortunately, a monopoly on TV news, so there's no reason to act like they bring anything to the table in terms of a Democratic candidate getting exposure with Democratic voters.

I get the principled stand piece but I don’t think it does anything for her and I think a widely viewed fox interview would have people on the left see more of her positions which would be popular.


So then why shouldn't she just cut to the chase in trying to reach Democratic voters by going on CNN & MSNBC instead? Why not just go on pretty much any of the major network news shows, whose ratings dwarf any of the Fox shows?

Why would Fox have some kind of special reach to Democratic viewers?

Lastly she can strongly make the case that her policies are in the interest of the average fox viewer (as a partial justification for being on their platform).


What purpose does this serve in trying to reach more Democratic primary voters (who she can equally or better reach via other media outlets)?
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Eggyolk » Thu May 16, 2019 7:16 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Eggyolk wrote:I think she would get 10-20x the exposure with a strong performance on Fox than an interview with cenk unger.


Well, sure, if the only media outlet options were Fox News or TYT, this might be a viable argument for going on Fox. Fox does not have, fortunately, a monopoly on TV news, so there's no reason to act like they bring anything to the table in terms of a Democratic candidate getting exposure with Democratic voters.

I get the principled stand piece but I don’t think it does anything for her and I think a widely viewed fox interview would have people on the left see more of her positions which would be popular.


Looking at Mayor Pete

So then why shouldn't she just cut to the chase in trying to reach Democratic voters by going on CNN & MSNBC instead? Why not just go on pretty much any of the major network news shows, whose ratings dwarf any of the Fox shows?

Why would Fox have some kind of special reach to Democratic viewers?

Lastly she can strongly make the case that her policies are in the interest of the average fox viewer (as a partial justification for being on their platform).


What purpose does this serve in trying to reach more Democratic primary voters (who she can equally or better reach via other media outlets)?


In the case of Mayor Pete it looks like his sit down with Chris Wallace did a million views. Half that on The View and 1/4 that on the late shows and morning shows. Interesting that his interview with Bill Maher got 4.5mil.

If I’m warren I’d go scorched earth. I don’t think the fox appearance is particularly important, it’s an opportunity to have a big moment that could really push her up a level or it could do nothing but I don’t think it would hurt her.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Thu May 16, 2019 7:34 pm

I dont think it can help her
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu May 16, 2019 7:40 pm

I'm confused; are we talking about YouTube views now? What does that have to do with something Fox News could do for someone like Warren?

Again, Fox News is not some kind of untapped resource for Democratic candidates, especially not when it comes to a Democratic primary. They don't hold some kind of special monopoly or inroads with TV viewers or YouTube hits.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Thu May 16, 2019 7:51 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:Question for anyone who thinks Warren's rhetoric about Fox was too harsh or "too far Left" and whatnot...do you think the Democrats should avoid a similar approach in talking about the latest developments in Alabama?

Speaking out strongly against a targeted policy issue is a bit different of a beast than going after an entire network. But,

The typical play book is probably, what?
(1) condem the law strongly and with no uncertainty
(2) present an alternative approach
(3) remind people they have a choice for a different path

If I was going to try and take the approach of Warren's Fox News response and apply it to a specific legislative matter, it's amplifying point 1 and probably condemning the lawmakers as well. Maybe even question if the lawmakers intent is anything other than nefarious. Points 2 and 3 may not even change much, but probably get a little drowned out. Is that a fair assessment, or do you think I'm overstating her response re: Fox News?
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu May 16, 2019 8:01 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:do you think I'm overstating her response re: Fox News?


Yes. Unquestionably. I don't see any kind of significant difference in taking a strong, principled stance vs. a woefully biased, shoddy, damaging propaganda outlet for the GOP and the current administration, and taking a strong principled, stance against the kind of insane, backwards lawmaking that is in no small part enabled and encouraged by that kind of propaganda. I take huge, huge issue that something as blatantly corrupt and destructive as Fox should be approached with kid gloves, because a similar criticism can easily be applied to anyone on the Left going after anyone or anything on the Right with any kind of passion or resolve.

And I disagree with the idea that sometimes somebody can't simply call out something as being wrong. I don't think anyone needs to present some kind of solution or alternative to Fox when calling them out as garbage.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Thu May 16, 2019 8:04 pm

Also just one other Ad Hoc thought comment re: Warren. It's probably a bit lazy to just guage "strength" of her responses as far as too far left. It's probably more accurate to question whether the public wants a more devisive candidate/responses or a more traditionally nuanced and balanced response. While it's easy to paint an archetype of politically active pissed off young Dem Socialist who cheers that type of response the reality is there is bound to be crossover, and I'm not sure how it's split across the left of center to left political spectrum. I can think of at least two older, more conservative Dems I know that are all about the more provocative type responses. I'd guess it'd still lean more left, but I don't know if it's a significant difference or not.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu May 16, 2019 8:08 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:I can think of at least two older, more conservative Dems I know that are all about the more provocative type responses.


And if someone is too "divisive" for them by, say, calling out Fox News, what are they going to do? Vote Republican instead? Not vote?

Like, is your main concern that this kind of rhetoric is going to somehow push people who vote on the Left to the Right?

My thinking is that this is an unavoidable divisive political climate, and if the Democrats are truly in danger of losing significant numbers of Democratic voters by going more Left, then they're screwed no matter what. I really don't see how any can look at recent history and see the Center as some kind of reachable thing of any significant number, much less the path for the Democrats to win.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Thu May 16, 2019 8:08 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:do you think I'm overstating her response re: Fox News?


Yes. Unquestionably. I don't see any kind of significant difference in taking a strong, principled stance vs. a woefully biased, shoddy, damaging propaganda outlet for the GOP and the current administration, and taking a strong principled, stance against the kind of insane, backwards lawmaking that is in no small part enabled and encouraged by that kind of propaganda. I take huge, huge issue that something as blatantly corrupt and destructive as Fox should be approached with kid gloves, because a similar criticism can easily be applied to anyone on the Left going after anyone or anything on the Right with any kind of passion or resolve.

And I disagree with the idea that sometimes somebody can't simply call out something as being wrong. I don't think anyone needs to present some kind of solution or alternative to Fox when calling them out as garbage.

Are you approaching this from a moral right or wrong or a political right or wrong?
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Thu May 16, 2019 8:10 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:I can think of at least two older, more conservative Dems I know that are all about the more provocative type responses.


And if someone is too "divisive" for them by, say, calling out Fox News, what are they going to do? Vote Republican instead? Not vote?

Like, is your main concern that this kind of rhetoric is going to somehow push people who vote on the Left to the Right?

Ive been talking this whole time about winning th D election, so no.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu May 16, 2019 8:13 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:do you think I'm overstating her response re: Fox News?


Yes. Unquestionably. I don't see any kind of significant difference in taking a strong, principled stance vs. a woefully biased, shoddy, damaging propaganda outlet for the GOP and the current administration, and taking a strong principled, stance against the kind of insane, backwards lawmaking that is in no small part enabled and encouraged by that kind of propaganda. I take huge, huge issue that something as blatantly corrupt and destructive as Fox should be approached with kid gloves, because a similar criticism can easily be applied to anyone on the Left going after anyone or anything on the Right with any kind of passion or resolve.

And I disagree with the idea that sometimes somebody can't simply call out something as being wrong. I don't think anyone needs to present some kind of solution or alternative to Fox when calling them out as garbage.

Are you approaching this from a moral right or wrong or a political right or wrong?


Both, actually. In regards to the anti-abortion legislation and Fox News. I think they're both examples of both a deficiency of morality and decency, and indicative of the worst, most regressive aspects of the modern Conservative. There is no workable argument, IMO, for Fox News as a "good"...anything. News, commentary, entertainment, propaganda...it's all bad. I think it's a pointless exercise to try and excuse it away by worrying that too many people on the Left are going to think that someone on the Left is being too harsh in their criticism of it.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu May 16, 2019 8:15 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:I can think of at least two older, more conservative Dems I know that are all about the more provocative type responses.


And if someone is too "divisive" for them by, say, calling out Fox News, what are they going to do? Vote Republican instead? Not vote?

Like, is your main concern that this kind of rhetoric is going to somehow push people who vote on the Left to the Right?

Ive been talking this whole time about winning th D election, so no.


Ah, so you're talking in terms of her pushing people to, say, Biden instead.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Thu May 16, 2019 9:02 pm

Anyone care to read about an outrageous but otherwise unsurprising scandal that will be largely ignored in a sea of incompetence, graft, and facism?

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-trump-administration-bailout-farmers-brazilian-criminals-20190516-6rdb3ithvfec7fttem7qrny54y-story.html

The Trump administration has forked over more than $62 million — taxpayer cash that was supposed to be earmarked for struggling American farmers — to a massive meatpacking company owned by a couple of corrupt Brazilian brothers.

The Department of Agriculture cut a contract in January to purchase $22.3 million worth of pork from plants operated by JBS USA, a Colorado-based subsidiary of Brazil’s JBS SA, which ranks as the largest meatpacker in the world.

The bailout raised eyebrows from industry insiders at the time, as it was sourced from a $12 billion program meant for American farmers harmed by President Trump’s escalating trade war with China and other countries.

But previously undisclosed purchase reports obtained by the Daily News this week reveal the administration has since issued at least two more bailouts to JBS, even as Trump’s own Justice Department began investigating the meatpacker, whose owners are Joesley and Wesley Batista — two wealthy brothers who have confessed to bribing hundreds of top officials in Brazil.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Thu May 16, 2019 9:19 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
And if someone is too "divisive" for them by, say, calling out Fox News, what are they going to do? Vote Republican instead? Not vote?

Like, is your main concern that this kind of rhetoric is going to somehow push people who vote on the Left to the Right?

Ive been talking this whole time about winning th D election, so no.


Ah, so you're talking in terms of her pushing people to, say, Biden instead.

Biden specifically? Maybe. Although a younger fresher Biden type perhaps has more potential to actually capture new voters.

I'll say that that response is well up her alley. She's trying to solidify her base against those who might try to replicate her, rather than trying to expand her base. Especially in a crowded field, that may well be the best route to winning rather than extend her base. If we look at the 2016 GOP and think that's guidance, it may be enough. Certainly part of Trumps, um "appeal", is making really strong specific emotional appeals over generic fluffy emotional appeals with a broader audience. It may well work for her, but it's also really silly to pretend like these decisions and non-decisions don't carry their own risks and rewards. And selling those decisions is huge and important rather than just making the decision.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu May 16, 2019 9:33 pm

I think you're vastly overstating how many of these Democrats have a different "base," like they essentially only have their own little fiefdoms in terms of people only supporting a very narrow brand of Democratic policy that they represent. Yeah, you do have exceptions, like Sanders (to a degree), but they're mostly all pulling from the same broad base. Acting like someone like Warren is drawing from dramatically different people than Biden or O'Rourke is not something I can get on board with.

I think approaching Democratic voters like they're these wildly different groups is faulty; the vast majority generally share similar variations of the same political values and goals, and acting like Warren is zeroing in on a tiny group waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay on the Far Left simply by throwing shade at Fox News just strikes me as a baffling misjudgement of her appeal and support. She's already largely seen as the middle ground sort of candidate between someone like Sanders and Biden. To me, THAT'S the only middle that matters for a Democrat, and I certainly don't think passionately and eloquently pointing out that Fox News is a crock of horsefeathers is going to alienate anyone down either end of that spectrum.

A lot of this honestly feels like it's dancing around some kind of personality or public face criticism. Like, she needs to be more polite lest she comes across as "shrill" or "off-putting," etc., etc..
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Eggyolk » Thu May 16, 2019 9:52 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:Ive been talking this whole time about winning th D election, so no.


Ah, so you're talking in terms of her pushing people to, say, Biden instead.

Biden specifically? Maybe. Although a younger fresher Biden type perhaps has more potential to actually capture new voters.

I'll say that that response is well up her alley. She's trying to solidify her base against those who might try to replicate her, rather than trying to expand her base. Especially in a crowded field, that may well be the best route to winning rather than extend her base. If we look at the 2016 GOP and think that's guidance, it may be enough. Certainly part of Trumps, um "appeal", is making really strong specific emotional appeals over generic fluffy emotional appeals with a broader audience. It may well work for her, but it's also really silly to pretend like these decisions and non-decisions don't carry their own risks and rewards. And selling those decisions is huge and important rather than just making the decision.



For Warren the only route to the top is to get there early and stay there. If it remains fragmented in the lede to the opening primaries then she does not have a chance. The black women voters in the SEC states will determine the nominee and they won’t pick her unless she is the presumptive.

Hopefully one of the good candidates gets aggressive and wins the campaign or it will default to Biden the same way it went to Hillary and then whoever stays in and is an exciting candidate will win in the Midwest and it will be too late and the exact same thing will happen as last time.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Thu May 16, 2019 10:00 pm

I mean yea, some left of center voters are gonna find this shrill and nutty
“Fox News is a hate-for-profit racket that gives a megaphone to racists and conspiracists—it’s designed to turn us against each other, risking life and death consequences, to provide cover for the corruption that’s rotting our government and hollowing out our middle class,”
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Eggyolk » Thu May 16, 2019 10:04 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:I'm confused; are we talking about YouTube views now? What does that have to do with something Fox News could do for someone like Warren?

Again, Fox News is not some kind of untapped resource for Democratic candidates, especially not when it comes to a Democratic primary. They don't hold some kind of special monopoly or inroads with TV viewers or YouTube hits.


I’ve always been. Fox News stuff is published on YouTube. Then left wing sites embed it in articles and it’s shared in . A Fox News interview or town hall reaches people on the left.

Example: somebody googles “universal child care” and potentially they are served a Fox News town hall on YouTube where warren nails a response and it gets a ton of engagement and google and YouTube keep serving it.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Thu May 16, 2019 10:23 pm

Could Biden get away with telling Fox to horsefeathers off?
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Thu May 16, 2019 10:25 pm

I'm super positive that the right & true GOP would most definitely be honorable and not fund raise/campaign/fear-monger on FOX on impeachment when Trump's actually not being impeached.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Thu May 16, 2019 10:47 pm

CyHawk_Cub wrote:Could Biden get away with telling Fox to horsefeathers off?

Well it would be awkward for him to offer and take an entire network out back and give 'em a knuckle sandwich.

But seriously, can we question a strategy of Warren without "But Biden!"-ing it?
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu May 16, 2019 10:50 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:I mean yea, some left of center voters are gonna find this shrill and nutty
“Fox News is a hate-for-profit racket that gives a megaphone to racists and conspiracists—it’s designed to turn us against each other, risking life and death consequences, to provide cover for the corruption that’s rotting our government and hollowing out our middle class,”


Then...good riddance? That's all obviously, painfully 100% true, and nowhere near actually being histrionics. Like, I don't know why you would think any of that is a fringe take; IMO, that's all just variations on the types of feelings that the vast, VAST majority of people on the Left have towards Fox News.

What kind of self-identified is Democrat is going to be worried about someone being too mean to Fox News? How are the actual Democrats supposed to pander to such people without effectively shooting off their other 9 toes?

Bottom line, I think that's the kind of stuff that needs to be said. Fox News is legitimately dangerous, and has done possibly insurmountable damage to this country. I will fully cop to not caring one iota about someone who says they're a Democrat, but then also claims that they think any of what you quoted is a Democratic candidate stepping over the line. Not of that is even remotely close to the type of mudslinging the GOP and Fox traffic in, and to imply that is is absurd, and seemingly looking for any reason to police her tone.

Was Obama over the line the multiple times he took shots at Fox, too? Is the problem just criticizing a conservative news network in general, Fox News specifically, or is it something about Warren that just compounds it even more in your eyes?
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu May 16, 2019 10:54 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
CyHawk_Cub wrote:Could Biden get away with telling Fox to horsefeathers off?

Well it would be awkward for him to offer and take an entire network out back and give 'em a knuckle sandwich.

But seriously, can we question a strategy of Warren without "But Biden!"-ing it?


Why? You're the one that keeps talking about "Left of Center Democrats" like they're the key to a Democrat winning the nomination, and also criticizing Warren's comments as being Right-style ranting. Biden is the the most high-profile candidate out there who is flogging EXACTLY the kind of "b-b-but Republicans are people, too!" sentiment that you seem to think Warren needs to embrace to have a shot. So why is out of bounds to bring him up?
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Thu May 16, 2019 11:01 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:[IMO, that's all just variations on the types of feelings that the vast, VAST majority of people on the Left have towards Fox News.


This is where I think you are very wrong. To the vast majority of people (D included) it's just another conservative news network, or even just another cable news network.

If you think it's powerful D's responsibility to highlight that and draw attention to the fact, by all means, do so, but it's a little bit of a separate discussion.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Thu May 16, 2019 11:03 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:
CyHawk_Cub wrote:Could Biden get away with telling Fox to horsefeathers off?

Well it would be awkward for him to offer and take an entire network out back and give 'em a knuckle sandwich.

But seriously, can we question a strategy of Warren without "But Biden!"-ing it?


Why? You're the one that keeps talking about "Left of Center Democrats" like they're the key to a Democrat winning the nomination, and also criticizing Warren's comments as being Right-style ranting. Biden is the the most high-profile candidate out there who is flogging EXACTLY the kind of "b-b-but Republicans are people, too!" sentiment that you seem to think Warren needs to embrace to have a shot. So why is out of bounds to bring him up?

Because questioning one extreme isn't an endorsement of another extreme? (using extreme looslely here).
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