Westworld

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Re: Westworld

Postby javy knows my name » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:38 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Derwood wrote:That has to be the end, right?

That episode screams "season 3 coming soon," especially if you stuck around past the credits that rolled after the false ending.


Hah can you imagine anyone turning the show off before codex ended? My goodness
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Re: Westworld

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:50 pm

So, had a theory about Elsie that I was rooting for, and for about 40 seconds I was pretty sure it was going to happen, but it did not. It isn't really a spoiler but since the finale was so recent I'll be safe.
Spoiler: show
So, I still stand by the statement that episode 4 was the best of the series. Its worth re watching just for the line that Delos says to Elsie and Bernard which we take to be crazy person babble, but turns out to be more tragic after a scene in the finale. Focus on the Bernard and Elsie stuff. I think there is a lot of timeline-memory hyjinx going on. First off, Elsie just tied to a wall with some protein bars and a pot? ...ok, whatever, but as soon as Elsie starts poking into Delos' room, Bernard starts memory hopping and even says to Elsie something to the effect of "I'm not with you right now am I?" which implies he is remembering what happens in the round room from EARLIER. There is a kind of cutaway both before and after they encounter Delos, and they are back in that outside room with the doods Bernard killed with his bare hands. Watch the sudden stink eye that Bernard is giving Elsie. He now realizes "wait...why doesn't Elsie remember all of that from before?! She must be..." and then they go into a convo of Bernard saying he was here to make a host and playing dumb about whom of was. Obviously, it was Delores in the Hale body, but I suspect he might have made two hosts, one of which was a new version of Elsie. Right before Hale killed her, she mentions that they have all the data on the employees as well, which was awfully convenient to drop right then. Alternately, the Elsie that Hale shot was maybe already a host and it was Bernard who killed her to begin with. They did rather awkwardly show Hale moving Elsie's body where they piled the dead hosts just before her doppelganger killed her.
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Re: Westworld

Postby Derwood » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:54 pm

javy knows my name wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Derwood wrote:That has to be the end, right?

That episode screams "season 3 coming soon," especially if you stuck around past the credits that rolled after the false ending.


Hah can you imagine anyone turning the show off before codex ended? My goodness


I watched through the post-credit scene. I just felt like they were epilogue-ing the hell out of the story. The end of season one was clearly leading into the next phase of the story. If they go onto a season three, I have no idea wha the story will be at all
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Re: Westworld

Postby javy knows my name » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:02 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:So, had a theory about Elsie that I was rooting for, and for about 40 seconds I was pretty sure it was going to happen, but it did not. It isn't really a spoiler but since the finale was so recent I'll be safe.
Spoiler: show
So, I still stand by the statement that episode 4 was the best of the series. Its worth re watching just for the line that Delos says to Elsie and Bernard which we take to be crazy person babble, but turns out to be more tragic after a scene in the finale. Focus on the Bernard and Elsie stuff. I think there is a lot of timeline-memory hyjinx going on. First off, Elsie just tied to a wall with some protein bars and a pot? ...ok, whatever, but as soon as Elsie starts poking into Delos' room, Bernard starts memory hopping and even says to Elsie something to the effect of "I'm not with you right now am I?" which implies he is remembering what happens in the round room from EARLIER. There is a kind of cutaway both before and after they encounter Delos, and they are back in that outside room with the doods Bernard killed with his bare hands. Watch the sudden stink eye that Bernard is giving Elsie. He now realizes "wait...why doesn't Elsie remember all of that from before?! She must be..." and then they go into a convo of Bernard saying he was here to make a host and playing dumb about whom of was. Obviously, it was Delores in the Hale body, but I suspect he might have made two hosts, one of which was a new version of Elsie. Right before Hale killed her, she mentions that they have all the data on the employees as well, which was awfully convenient to drop right then. Alternately, the Elsie that Hale shot was maybe already a host and it was Bernard who killed her to begin with. They did rather awkwardly show Hale moving Elsie's body where they piled the dead hosts just before her doppelganger killed her.


Really, really cool reveal that Bernard was 100% in control as he brutally murdered the lab techs and made copies of these things that he so plainly despises post-memory scramble. I'm sure I'll identify more things I thought Ford was doing that Bernard was actually doing of his own free will on the season re-watch.

Also, it was incredibly moving to find out he scrambled his own brain to protect the hosts. That's a new level of self-sacrifice, and really gorgeous writing. Cool finale.
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Re: Westworld

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:03 pm

Derwood wrote:
javy knows my name wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:That episode screams "season 3 coming soon," especially if you stuck around past the credits that rolled after the false ending.


Hah can you imagine anyone turning the show off before codex ended? My goodness


I watched through the post-credit scene. I just felt like they were epilogue-ing the hell out of the story. The end of season one was clearly leading into the next phase of the story. If they go onto a season three, I have no idea wha the story will be at all

...it will be team Dolores and Dolores trying to take over the world and resurrected Muave and Bernard failing to stop them.
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Re: Westworld

Postby Derwood » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:07 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Derwood wrote:
javy knows my name wrote:
Hah can you imagine anyone turning the show off before codex ended? My goodness


I watched through the post-credit scene. I just felt like they were epilogue-ing the hell out of the story. The end of season one was clearly leading into the next phase of the story. If they go onto a season three, I have no idea wha the story will be at all

...it will be team Dolores and Dolores trying to take over the world and resurrected Muave and Bernard failing to stop them.


You're probably right, but an entire season outside of the park would be a pretty big tonal shift. The mythos of the wild west is important to the story.
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Re: Westworld

Postby TBS Playoffs Insider » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:11 pm

Derwood wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Derwood wrote:
I watched through the post-credit scene. I just felt like they were epilogue-ing the hell out of the story. The end of season one was clearly leading into the next phase of the story. If they go onto a season three, I have no idea wha the story will be at all

...it will be team Dolores and Dolores trying to take over the world and resurrected Muave and Bernard failing to stop them.


You're probably right, but an entire season outside of the park would be a pretty big tonal shift. The mythos of the wild west is important to the story.


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Re: Westworld

Postby Derwood » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:11 pm

TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:
Derwood wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:...it will be team Dolores and Dolores trying to take over the world and resurrected Muave and Bernard failing to stop them.


You're probably right, but an entire season outside of the park would be a pretty big tonal shift. The mythos of the wild west is important to the story.


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Re: Westworld

Postby Derwood » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:15 pm

They've already greenlit season 3, so......yeah
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Re: Westworld

Postby VVMattVV » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:53 pm

Derwood wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Derwood wrote:
I watched through the post-credit scene. I just felt like they were epilogue-ing the hell out of the story. The end of season one was clearly leading into the next phase of the story. If they go onto a season three, I have no idea wha the story will be at all

...it will be team Dolores and Dolores trying to take over the world and resurrected Muave and Bernard failing to stop them.


You're probably right, but an entire season outside of the park would be a pretty big tonal shift. The mythos of the wild west is important to the story.


Dolores had a line last night about being "tired of playing Cowboys and Indians." I think they are going for a big tonal shift.
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Re: Westworld

Postby Derwood » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:57 pm

VVMattVV wrote:
Derwood wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:...it will be team Dolores and Dolores trying to take over the world and resurrected Muave and Bernard failing to stop them.


You're probably right, but an entire season outside of the park would be a pretty big tonal shift. The mythos of the wild west is important to the story.


Dolores had a line last night about being "tired of playing Cowboys and Indians." I think they are going for a big tonal shift.


It shall be interesting.
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Re: Westworld

Postby javy knows my name » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:18 pm

Derwood wrote:They've already greenlit season 3, so......yeah


How you aren't curious about the following:

What the real world looks like/is
How long/to what extent/why William has been in a loop
How the show will continue to examine human vs. digital virtues and morality

Is mystifying. Plus, the show constantly expands and re-defines its scope. It would be a real kick in the nuts to stop before they hit the real world
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Re: Westworld

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:35 pm

javy knows my name wrote:
Derwood wrote:They've already greenlit season 3, so......yeah


How you aren't curious about the following:

What the real world looks like/is
How long/to what extent/why William has been in a loop
How the show will continue to examine human vs. digital virtues and morality

Is mystifying. Plus, the show constantly expands and re-defines its scope. It would be a real kick in the nuts to stop before they hit the real world

There is a Lisa Joy interview that sheds a little light on question 2 up there, if you don't mind a mild spoiler.
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Re: Westworld

Postby Derwood » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:35 pm

javy knows my name wrote:
Derwood wrote:They've already greenlit season 3, so......yeah


How you aren't curious about the following:

What the real world looks like/is
How long/to what extent/why William has been in a loop
How the show will continue to examine human vs. digital virtues and morality

Is mystifying. Plus, the show constantly expands and re-defines its scope. It would be a real kick in the nuts to stop before they hit the real world


When did I say I wasn't curious about any of those things?
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Re: Westworld

Postby TBS Playoffs Insider » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:07 pm

can you imagine watching the last 20 episodes of westworld with all its themes of sentience and agency and the inevitability of human evolution and the likelihood that our very nature will make that step a very bloody one and your takeaway being "the western aspect of the show is very important" lol
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Re: Westworld

Postby Derwood » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:09 pm

TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:can you imagine watching the last 20 episodes of westworld with all its themes of sentience and agency and the inevitability of human evolution and the likelihood that our very nature will make that step a very bloody one and your takeaway being "the western aspect of the show is very important" lol


yes, my "take away"
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Re: Westworld

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:19 pm

But yeah, as for the finale, it really dove deep into determinism, which is totally my jam. Apart from some plot points being tied up fairly messily, it was a better finale than I was expecting.
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Re: Westworld

Postby TBS Playoffs Insider » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:20 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:But yeah, as for the finale, it really dove deep into determinism, which is totally my jam. Apart from some plot points being tied up fairly messily, it was a better finale than I was expecting.


I LOVE that it is being presented to us not as "wow robots have free will, just like humans" but that "hey none of you dickheads have free will, you aren't special"
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Re: Westworld

Postby Derwood » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:26 pm

TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:But yeah, as for the finale, it really dove deep into determinism, which is totally my jam. Apart from some plot points being tied up fairly messily, it was a better finale than I was expecting.


I LOVE that it is being presented to us not as "wow robots have free will, just like humans" but that "hey none of you dickheads have free will, you aren't special"


My best friend is a PhD in philosophy and he's creaming his pants over this show
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Re: Westworld

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:53 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Derwood wrote:I don't hate this season at all. My problem is (and this is a me problem, not a show problem) that once they revealed that we were watching multiple timelines last season, I now no longer trust any scene with Delores or Bernard as being in the time we think it is.

My current working theory is:

Spoiler: show
None of these hosts are actually "woke", but are instead being controlled by some other yet-to-be-seen faction of humans for yet-to-be-revealed reasons

I would be pretty pissed off if that was the case, but I'm easy to piss off. It is also a me problem. But yeah, there seemed to be a pretty clear role reversal in that first scene that Dolores and Bernard had together this season. I think that Dolores is pulling the strings on host Bernard. Maeve and Dolores' stand off (which I thought was short and rushed and kinda lame) already hinted that there is going to be a host versus host reckoning, with authoritarian, one-for-all Dolores versus freedom and all-for-yourselves Maeve, and Bernard is gunna burst free and we'll see yet another role reversal with Bernard offing Dolores...which is a convenient result for me because Dolores sucks now.

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Re: Westworld

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:33 pm

And in case anyone missed the GOT reference:
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Re: Westworld

Postby Derwood » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:15 pm

Just read an article that included information from one of the show runners

Spoiler: show
season 3 may not start shooting until 2019
The only hosts who will live in the real world are Delores, Bernard and the five CPUs she snuck out in her purse
There are still three parks we haven’t seen
If Maeve isn’t one of the CPUs in the purse, the two Delos techs who accompanied her through Shogun World could fix her up. She would then provide a storyline inside the parks
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Re: Westworld

Postby OleMissCub » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:03 pm

I'm still uncertain if the Emily that William shot was a host or his actual daughter. I'm still leaning toward host. I was rewatching some scenes from earlier in the season and when she comes to get wounded William from Ghost Nation, she is speaking Lakota pretty well. We know that the hosts can speak whatever language they want to if needed and I have my doubts that real Emily would speak Lakota so well or even at all.
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Re: Westworld

Postby Banedon » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:16 pm

OleMissCub wrote:I'm still uncertain if the Emily that William shot was a host or his actual daughter. I'm still leaning toward host. I was rewatching some scenes from earlier in the season and when she comes to get wounded William from Ghost Nation, she is speaking Lakota pretty well. We know that the hosts can speak whatever language they want to if needed and I have my doubts that real Emily would speak Lakota so well or even at all.


It's a host in that future scene. That post-credits scene was many years in the future. And he killed his real daughter.

He wasn't a host for the whole show...the only time it was a host version of him was when he "woke up" after having blown apart his hand and went down the elevator. We didn't see all the repeated loops...we only saw that original moment. Him killing his daughter was akin to Delos shunning Logan...the defining moment.
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Re: Westworld

Postby Tim » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:23 pm

Banedon wrote:
OleMissCub wrote:I'm still uncertain if the Emily that William shot was a host or his actual daughter. I'm still leaning toward host. I was rewatching some scenes from earlier in the season and when she comes to get wounded William from Ghost Nation, she is speaking Lakota pretty well. We know that the hosts can speak whatever language they want to if needed and I have my doubts that real Emily would speak Lakota so well or even at all.


It's a host in that future scene. That post-credits scene was many years in the future. And he killed his real daughter.

He wasn't a host for the whole show...the only time it was a host version of him was when he "woke up" after having blown apart his hand and went down the elevator. We didn't see all the repeated loops...we only saw that original moment. Him killing his daughter was akin to Delos shunning Logan...the defining moment.

The daughter was the only "human" pulled up with the hosts at the end. May not have meaning, but it could mean she was a host. That wouldn't take away from it being a defining moment for William since he didn't know.
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