Politics & Current Events

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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sank888 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:39 pm

JennieGarthAlgar wrote:
Derwood wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:What?


Clinton was the presumptive nominee on June 14, but Sanders didn't officially endorse her until July 12.


If Joe Biden had an open FBI investigation happening right now, Id want the 2nd place candidate to stay in for a while to see how that shook out, too. Time will tell how Bernie deals with the situation right now but I have no problem with him sticking around a few weeks to see if Clinton was going to be indicted.


In that scenario Biden would basically have to be talked into pulling himself. Sanders campaigning from now until wouldn’t impact that scenario. He could still be determined the nominee if Biden pulls out and the delegates come together for him. “Withdrawing” from the race is more or less an optical thing and means you are no longer actively pursuing candidacy. Sanders can pull out now, and he’s in the same position he’d be in the situation you describe above. The delegates he’d gain by staying in the race would not be material.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sank888 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:45 pm

Sanders can do what he wants. Whatever from here on out will just alienate people, dilute his message and help trump. But that will probably be a muted affect. The true damage would come from a sustained viral attack claiming he’s senile. And I think that’s likely to occur with or without sanders in the race.

sanders has no path forward in national politics. What we have seen is much more of a repudiation of sanders movement by the media, establishment and dem voting base than it is support for Biden. Biden was just the rope used to hang the movement and would have been any other. This reminds me a little of Le Pen though they are opposites. Her fevered populist insurgency was tapped down when they found the most vanilla stick figure available in Macron.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby CubinNY » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:46 pm

SouthSideRyan wrote:
Tim wrote:In other news, Trump endorses Tommy Tuberville (!) over Sessions.

If Sessions loses, I really hope he goes scorched earth in retaliation.


How many people do we have to hope go scorched earth in retaliation before we realize these people don't care?

This is Round 2 for Sessions alone.

Tubervile is up by 12 points and is refusing to debate Sessions. Alabama is Trump central and the voters aren't going to side with Sessions. Tuberville is done in the world of college football, lives in Florida, and has hitched his wagon to Trump and God. He's likely going to be the next Senator from Alabama.

Sessions was Trump before Trump knew he was Trump. Trump got Stephen Miller from Sessions if that tells you anything. His sin was not recusing himself and shutting down the Mueller investigation. Sessions is going to take the loss and continue to be the racist piece of garbage he's always been. He's not going to scorch anything but a cross in some secret place.

Alabama is stupid. The state legislature is currently debating a 1993 ban on yoga in the schools due to it being anti-Christian. The ban will likely stay in place.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby CubinNY » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:03 pm

Sank888 wrote:Sanders can do what he wants. Whatever from here on out will just alienate people, dilute his message and help trump. But that will probably be a muted affect. The true damage would come from a sustained viral attack claiming he’s senile. And I think that’s likely to occur with or without sanders in the race.

sanders has no path forward in national politics. What we have seen is much more of a repudiation of sanders movement by the media, establishment and dem voting base than it is support for Biden. Biden was just the rope used to hang the movement and would have been any other. This reminds me a little of Le Pen though they are opposites. Her fevered populist insurgency was tapped down when they found the most vanilla stick figure available in Macron.

Money needs to be poured into local organizations and progressives need to get organized and start running for local elections. That's what conservatives did starting in the 1980s. The real Reagan Revolution was getting the money behind them and the think tanks that were supported by the money to get involved locally. They had a plan and executed it with precision starting at the level of the school board. Until the left copies that plan, Bernie, AOC, and national progressive figures will only serve as pincushions for local elections.

There is no functioning Democratic party in states like Alabama and Wyoming, let alone a progressive wing, even though there are large numbers of progressive-minded people throughout red states.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Bote McBoteface » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:07 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:Well, on the subject of both "Is Biden senile?" and "Let's unite the party!"



This isn't good at all. This is bad.


Four years to hand pick a person capable of beating a comically awful president, and we came up with a guy who isn’t even fully aware of his surroundings. Trump is gonna trounce this guy in the general, and it’ll be deserved. Good news is, Joe probably won’t even remember it the next day. That and we wont have to watch him sniff any little girls in the oval office.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sank888 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:20 pm

CubinNY wrote:
Sank888 wrote:Sanders can do what he wants. Whatever from here on out will just alienate people, dilute his message and help trump. But that will probably be a muted affect. The true damage would come from a sustained viral attack claiming he’s senile. And I think that’s likely to occur with or without sanders in the race.

sanders has no path forward in national politics. What we have seen is much more of a repudiation of sanders movement by the media, establishment and dem voting base than it is support for Biden. Biden was just the rope used to hang the movement and would have been any other. This reminds me a little of Le Pen though they are opposites. Her fevered populist insurgency was tapped down when they found the most vanilla stick figure available in Macron.

Money needs to be poured into local organizations and progressives need to get organized and start running for local elections. That's what conservatives did starting in the 1980s. The real Reagan Revolution was getting the money behind them and the think tanks that were supported by the money to get involved locally. They had a plan and executed it with precision starting at the level of the school board. Until the left copies that plan, Bernie, AOC, and national progressive figures will only serve as pincushions for local elections.

There is no functioning Democratic party in states like Alabama and Wyoming, let alone a progressive wing, even though there are large numbers of progressive-minded people throughout red states.


This is the two party system losing control (or it never really had control and I am only now experiencing it enough to notice). In Chicago, where we have zero Republican Party, 6 new DSA alderman won races last summer. I imagine that caucus grows. It’s a reaction to the sort of corporate Whig-style democrat that Rahm represented and probably inspired by AOC and Bernie. That group is going to grow.

I think it’s different than the fracture on the right you experience in Alabama. Because (at least my view as an outsider that might be wrong) is that the psychos on the right just flat out took over and the normal people who thought they were just pro-business and now realizing that they are on the losing end of a culture war and they must fight back through trump.

As soon as the DSA has the strategic capacity to do so, they will stop running as democrats. Biden winning may even speed that up. And the DSA will be a fundraising powerhouse to deal with.

On a local level the DSA people here really lose me. They are ignorant to the need to win commercial business. They tried to shut down a huge development that will be unequivocally good for every single resident of the city. There is a huge difference between being anti corporate on a federal level vs a local level.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sank888 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:26 pm

Bote McBoteface wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:Well, on the subject of both "Is Biden senile?" and "Let's unite the party!"



This isn't good at all. This is bad.


Four years to hand pick a person capable of beating a comically awful president, and we came up with a guy who isn’t even fully aware of his surroundings. Trump is gonna trounce this guy in the general, and it’ll be deserved. Good news is, Joe probably won’t even remember it the next day. That and we wont have to watch him sniff any little girls in the oval office.


These people are doing Trumps work. We have zero idea what of the many voices Biden is hearing in that situation. I’ve watched his town halls. He’s 77 but he’s not horsefeathering senile.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby sneakypower » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:23 pm

Tim wrote:Uh...what's the mystery?

Bernie dropping out and endorsing Biden = unified party
Bernie continuing to run and trashing Biden for several months = not a unified party

the friction in the party isn't a biden/bernie thing, it's an existential climate change/healthcare/loans crisis thing between boomers & Y/Z

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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby sneakypower » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:26 pm

TruffleShuffle wrote:https://twitter.com/natesilver538/status/1237602169747955714?s=21

it's not a hard needle to thread for people to have thought Warren was ingenuine about her commitment to progressive causes she championed, which is pretty clearly evidenced by now with her completely not seeing a need to throw her support behind the formerly viable candidate considerably much more aligned with her stated vision than Joe Biden

also very easy to think her supporters thought her genuinely sincere so an endorsement may have been meaningful, but we're past that anyway just Nate sounds very dopey about this
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Bote McBoteface » Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:03 pm

Sank888 wrote:
Bote McBoteface wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:Well, on the subject of both "Is Biden senile?" and "Let's unite the party!"



This isn't good at all. This is bad.


Four years to hand pick a person capable of beating a comically awful president, and we came up with a guy who isn’t even fully aware of his surroundings. Trump is gonna trounce this guy in the general, and it’ll be deserved. Good news is, Joe probably won’t even remember it the next day. That and we wont have to watch him sniff any little girls in the oval office.


These people are doing Trumps work. We have zero idea what of the many voices Biden is hearing in that situation. I’ve watched his town halls. He’s 77 but he’s not horsefeathering senile.


I don’t think its an open and shut case that he is not going senile. Senile or not, though, he’s a gaffe machine and it is deeply embarrassing. We can’t have that. In a battle of two gaffe machines, the electorate seems pretty likely to just stick with the incumbent unless the economy tanks completely. Also, and i’m not sure if this has been mentioned yet, the horsefeathers guy is on camera in the oval office sniffing little girls, among other creepy-ass behaviors, many many times. Just, ugh. I hate Trump enough to vote for anybody this time around, but Biden pushes my definition of “anybody” to its extreme. Its unlikely that he’d have my support in 2024 if he does win in 2020....which, he isn’t going to because he’s a god awful candidate and god awful democrats never win.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby jersey cubs fan » Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:06 pm

sneakypower wrote:
TruffleShuffle wrote:https://twitter.com/natesilver538/status/1237602169747955714?s=21

it's not a hard needle to thread for people to have thought Warren was ingenuine about her commitment to progressive causes she championed, which is pretty clearly evidenced by now with her completely not seeing a need to throw her support behind the formerly viable candidate considerably much more aligned with her stated vision than Joe Biden

also very easy to think her supporters thought her genuinely sincere so an endorsement may have been meaningful, but we're past that anyway just Nate sounds very dopey about this

I could use the same needle and thread to point out Bernie has never showed a willingness to do what was necessary to actually get his progressive causes through legislation.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:11 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:I could use the same needle and thread to point out Bernie has never showed a willingness to do what was necessary to actually get his progressive causes through legislation.

Can you expound this idea?
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby CubinNY » Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:56 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:I could use the same needle and thread to point out Bernie has never showed a willingness to do what was necessary to actually get his progressive causes through legislation.

Can you expound this idea?

It’s self-evident.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:12 pm

CubinNY wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:I could use the same needle and thread to point out Bernie has never showed a willingness to do what was necessary to actually get his progressive causes through legislation.

Can you expound this idea?

It’s self-evident.

The only way he could get his agenda passed was to be President. There aren't enough Dems on the national level willing to pass anything he's advocated for, that is, until the Dems come around to it 20 years later. And by the way, the most Democrat aspect to Bernie is his failure to pass progressive legislation. Its the defining aspect of both Bernie and the party.

Seriously though, what "was necessary" to pass legislation, apart from the legislation and countless amendments he did see through?
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:36 pm

Trying to be as even handed as possible, Bernie and his supporters are very clear minded in their end goals, people love Bernie more than other progressive candidates because he is uncompromising in his advocacy for those goals. Compared to his peers there's way fewer votes that he's found himself on the wrong side of history, and he wants significant change to the status quo in his policy ideas. To be clear, off the top of my head there's not much that Bernie wants that I don't want also.

The other side of this coin is that because Bernie is at the far left of the existing party structure and because he is so uncompromising, pragmatism and coalition-building become frustratingly difficult. For all his time in office(and it's possible I'm missing something), there's not exactly a trademark policy that Bernie has been primarily responsible for turning into law(compare to say, Warren and the CFPB). Bernie's supporters see this as righteously rejecting being pulled into the 'better things aren't possible' trope, his critics frustrated that any attempt at incremental improvement struggles to get the support it would otherwise deserve.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby sneakypower » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:40 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:
sneakypower wrote:
TruffleShuffle wrote:https://twitter.com/natesilver538/status/1237602169747955714?s=21

it's not a hard needle to thread for people to have thought Warren was ingenuine about her commitment to progressive causes she championed, which is pretty clearly evidenced by now with her completely not seeing a need to throw her support behind the formerly viable candidate considerably much more aligned with her stated vision than Joe Biden

also very easy to think her supporters thought her genuinely sincere so an endorsement may have been meaningful, but we're past that anyway just Nate sounds very dopey about this

I could use the same needle and thread to point out Bernie has never showed a willingness to do what was necessary to actually get his progressive causes through legislation.

but then you'd be equating failure of a single senator to unilaterally pass single-payer somehow against an entirely intransigent, corp-controlled gov't body, with the indifference to not simply say "hey i'm with this guy"
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Chocolate Milk » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:49 pm

A lot of people whom I have respect for are showing their asses on twitter today. 0 introspection on why Bernie failed to win the primary.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby sneakypower » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:55 pm

Chocolate Milk wrote:A lot of people whom I have respect for are showing their asses on twitter today. 0 introspection on why Bernie failed to win the primary.

they should really be honest about the electorate collectively realizing on March 3rd how horsefeathers awesome Joe Biden is

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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:57 pm

Chocolate Milk wrote:A lot of people whom I have respect for are showing their asses on twitter today. 0 introspection on why Bernie failed to win the primary.

Is introspection really the word you wanted to use there?
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Chocolate Milk » Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:05 pm

sneakypower wrote:
Chocolate Milk wrote:A lot of people whom I have respect for are showing their asses on twitter today. 0 introspection on why Bernie failed to win the primary.

they should really be honest about the electorate collectively realizing on March 3rd how horsefeathers awesome Joe Biden is

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What do you think happened?
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby big ball chunky time » Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:42 pm

sneakypower wrote:
Chocolate Milk wrote:A lot of people whom I have respect for are showing their asses on twitter today. 0 introspection on why Bernie failed to win the primary.

they should really be honest about the electorate collectively realizing on March 3rd how horsefeathers awesome Joe Biden is

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How is this anything more than “B-b-b-but my candidate.”

More voters were split between the centrist candidates than the progressive ones. When Biden won SC, the centrists left and he swept up their votes. There were of them than there were of progressive voters, ipso facto...
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:49 pm

big ball chunky time wrote:
More voters were split between the centrist candidates than the progressive ones. When Biden won SC, the centrists left and he swept up their votes. There were of them than there were of progressive voters, ipso facto...

I think there was a lot more to it than that, but that was probably the biggest factor. ...although twitter told me that it all went downhill when Bernie accepted Joe Rogan's endorsement. I'll have to fact check that one.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby sneakypower » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:45 pm

Chocolate Milk wrote:What do you think happened?

Pete Buttigieg, Amy Klobuchar, Beto O'Rourke, Kamala Harris, Whitmer, etc. all near-simultaneously came together to throw their full support behind a man who had won 1 out of the first 4 states in a 50-state race, to considerably bolster the very shaky argument that major liberal news outlets had been relentlessly hammering away at for several years about electability trumping all else in this race, which was borne out in the exit polls:

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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:52 pm

How did they keep the core Sanders' base (younger voters) from showing up?
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby big ball chunky time » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:54 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:How did they keep the core Sanders' base (younger voters) from showing up?


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