Politics & Current Events

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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:56 pm

How did they keep Sanders' campaign from apparently not learning a single [expletive] thing in almost 5 years in terms of reaching out to his core supporters?

How did they stymie Sanders on the idea that you need some kind of coalition, at the bare minimum, with people in the party you are trying to run for president under the banner of? How did they trick Sanders into seemingly doing almost nothing to create a visible and vocal coalition out of the wave of more progressive Democrats voted into office in the last couple of years, lest it dare take any attention away from the great undertaking that is The Bernie Sanders Show?
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:59 pm

It's like the "Bush did 9/11!!!!" theories; the evil bad guy is simultaneously the most incompetent enemy you've ever come across, AND the most capable. It just depends on what you need at any given moment to make your theory work.

Sanders ran the same campaign as 2016, and yet again didn't get enough votes to win. But sure, the problem is that a bunch of Democrats, only one of whom you could possibly fathom as supporting him in these circumstances, didn't throw their support behind the the guy who wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire. BUSTED.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Andy » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:10 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:How did they keep the core Sanders' base (younger voters) from showing up?

I think Sneaky anticipated that breakdown of Sanders getting a huge majority of younger voters as some kind of 'gotcha' when in reality it showed that not even 30 damn percent of all Michigan voters were under 40.

Insert Brad Pitt in Moneyball "If Bernie Sanders can drive young voters to the polls, why don't young voters go to the polls to vote for him?" meme here
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:21 pm

Sanders was basically only facing Clinton in 2016 once Michigan rolled around and he won it (I have no idea if any of those other zilches were technically still in it; they didn't matter)...this time he couldn't even win a single damn county. How is him losing to a single candidate such a horsefeathering travesty this time because of the timing of other people dropping out, yet him winning the same state against a single candidate was this amazing rallying call as to how it should have been him in 2016?
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby sneakypower » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:26 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:How did they keep the core Sanders' base (younger voters) from showing up?

i've been admittedly a bit too preoccupied with personal matters to better understand the full cause of this but i will say anytime i see 3-8 hour voting lines in any situation i will basically consider that outright voter suppression
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby The Logan » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:27 pm

It's highly unlikely for obvious reasons, but Sanders should be clawing tooth and nail to convince Obama to endorse him.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby jersey cubs fan » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:29 pm

The Logan wrote:It's highly unlikely for obvious reasons, but Sanders should be clawing tooth and nail to convince Obama to endorse him.

that's about 2 years too late, and was never going to happen
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:29 pm

All the black voters who waited for hours in lines to vote for Biden appreciate privileged white voters being concerned about voter suppression.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby sneakypower » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:33 pm

Andy wrote:I think Sneaky anticipated that breakdown of Sanders getting a huge majority of younger voters as some kind of 'gotcha' when in reality it showed that not even 30 damn percent of all Michigan voters were under 40.

that doesn't seem terribly out of line with their population share though

i can't pinpoint 18-40 with those ranges, but 15-34 is 27% and 20-44 is 36% so is that really a damning indictment?
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:43 pm

CyHawk_Cub wrote:All the black voters who waited for hours in lines to vote for Biden appreciate privileged white voters being concerned about voter suppression.


We've uncovered the dastardly plot to give every potential Democratic voter under the age of 35 Mono. Sanders never stood a chance! They were just so sleepy after all those rallies and typing, the poor dears.

But yeah, I like this theory of selective voter suppression that disproportionately and skillfully impacted the demographics of Sanders' supporters, which, LO- horsefeathering -L.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby sneakypower » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:49 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
CyHawk_Cub wrote:All the black voters who waited for hours in lines to vote for Biden appreciate privileged white voters being concerned about voter suppression.


We've uncovered the dastardly plot to give every potential Democratic voter under the age of 35 Mono. Sanders never stood a chance! They were just so sleepy after all those rallies and typing, the poor dears.

i really can't take any of this gloating seriously, that anybody is actually this horsefeathers gleeful to have Joe Biden lined up as cannon fodder for Trump
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:58 pm

I won't even try to speak for mojo** but I sure as horsefeathers am not gleeful. Upthread I was vocal about my reservations (<---understated AF) about Biden, especially as a candidate.





**o.k., we all know mojo can find glee in almost any running argument situation
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:04 pm

CyHawk_Cub wrote:I won't even try to speak for mojo** but I sure as horsefeathers am not gleeful. Upthread I was vocal about my reservations (<---understated AF) about Biden, especially as a candidate.





**o.k., we all know mojo can find glee in almost any running argument situation


The latter is deliciously true, granted, but sneaky has been regularly subtly and not-so-subtly dropping bombs about how plenty of people critical of the Sanders' campaign here must be licking their chops over Biden or some horsefeathers.

It's really very easy realize that Biden is disgusting mess AND that Sanders has run a terrible, terrible campaign that doesn't require any kind of nefarious plots or wheeling and dealing to see why he's getting his dick kicked in.

Also: the ongoing idea that Biden is doomed against Trump is weird. Why? America's tolerance for mumbly-mouthed/brained dolts is appallingly low so long as it's "their guy." I'm baffled by the idea of people who think Trump is going to run circles around him, like they're both not rapidly melting candles representing the fleeting non-permanence of human existence.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Chocolate Milk » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:04 pm

I don't want Biden but I do want to get a progressive elected at some point so its probably worth considering some reasons why he lost besides that it was a media and establishment conspiracy. I saw some dope post on twitter that the next progressive candidate should immediately declare the media as their enemy - it had like 20k retweets. SideShowBobStepsOnRakes.gif
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby big ball chunky time » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:15 pm

I would have 1,000 times over rather had Sanders emerge as a clear frontrunner. Biden looks like someone took a skin suit and poured 100 gallons of potato soup in it.

but it is nice to find some small slice of joy in the uncritical thought process of the sanders supporters who cannot accept that just maybe what happened is their own fault. that's always a little fun.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby NOLA » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:17 pm

Chocolate Milk wrote:I don't want Biden but I do want to get a progressive elected at some point so its probably worth considering some reasons why he lost besides that it was a media and establishment conspiracy. I saw some dope post on twitter that the next progressive candidate should immediately declare the media as their enemy - it had like 20k retweets. SideShowBobStepsOnRakes.gif

Or maybe that person can be like Bernie except under 50 and not fanning conspiracy flames regularly? If Bernie has come out with a more positive message he’d might have killed it this time. I know, I know, but his message doesn’t make the sound bites on CNN that conspiracy claims do.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:20 pm

I'm choosing to believe that a large segment of toxic online Sanders stans aren't true supporters. These are sock puppets who take joy in watching Twitter meltdowns, nothing more IMO. Some may also be Russian trolls whose only goal is further division.

Some critics truly want to see change and can't get why others who "claim to be" progressives don't want change in the same ways that they do. Some can't fathom why Sanders, who should in the very least be appreciated by progressives of all stripes for helping to shift the Overton window on policy debate, isn't everyone's darling.

I stated my criteria when the first candidates announced, and Warren was the one who checked the most boxes for me, and critically clamored for changing the most fundamental of the process concerns I had: filibuster reform. I cannot take seriously any progressive policy agenda that does not have nuking the filibuster as the first order of business. If I had my way, the second order of business would be statehood for D.C. and PR.

You want to better ensure the advancement of progressiveism going forward? Then enfranchise those who would demand such advancement. Medicare for all is a worthy policy goal, but it's a sirens' call at best without some fundamentals being addressed first.

My very generic, overbroad 2 cents.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:22 pm

The progressive wing of the Democratic Party needs to accept that Bernie is a candidate with a hard ceiling and stop making him the focal point of the movement.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:25 pm

Hairyducked Idiot wrote:The progressive wing of the Democratic Party needs to accept that Bernie is a candidate with a hard ceiling and stop making him the focal point of the movement.


Should be relatively easy, since he's shown barely any signs of wanting anything to do with any of them.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:29 pm

CyHawk_Cub wrote:I'm choosing to believe that a large segment of toxic online Sanders stans aren't true supporters. These are sock puppets who take joy in watching Twitter meltdowns, nothing more IMO. Some may also be Russian trolls whose only goal is further division.


I think there's a simpler but more nuanced explanation. Like I said before, Sanders is going to attract the most people furthest from the center/average voter, they're going to have the most stuff to disagree with, definitionally. Then you combine Bernie's idealistic stubbornness with the fact that like so many of us, those supporters brains get warped by social media's incentives and echo chambers, and you get the stereotypical Bernie Bro's brand of activism by browbeating. Add in a misunderstanding of Trump and the difference in what it takes to win over the left's coalition v. the right and you have a campaign and supporters who haven't understood well enough the motivations of the people they need to win over.

Signed, someone who voted for Bernie yesterday
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Soul » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:13 am

Aww hell no he didn’t just shut down Europe.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:38 am

(Feverishly) hot take: if the coronavirus issue continues throughout the year, Trump is all but a lock to be re-elected. It takes the heat of the economy tanking off of him, and it effectively turns him into a wartime president, meaning he benefits from the default, "don't change horses midstream" bump that incumbent wartime presidents get basically by default.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Brian707 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:43 am

Sammy Sofa wrote:(Feverishly) hot take: if the coronavirus issue continues throughout the year, Trump is all but a lock to be re-elected. It takes the heat of the economy tanking off of him, and it effectively turns him into a wartime president, meaning he benefits from the default, "don't change horses midstream" bump that incumbent wartime presidents get basically by default.


Or if the virus is contained, he will declare victory. Its a win win for him.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby TruffleShuffle » Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:04 am

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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby TruffleShuffle » Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:15 am

sneakypower wrote:
Chocolate Milk wrote:What do you think happened?

Pete Buttigieg, Amy Klobuchar, Beto O'Rourke, Kamala Harris, Whitmer, etc. all near-simultaneously came together to throw their full support behind a man who had won 1 out of the first 4 states in a 50-state race, to considerably bolster the very shaky argument that major liberal news outlets had been relentlessly hammering away at for several years about electability trumping all else in this race, which was borne out in the exit polls:

Image

with one simple trick, you can become 3x as 'electable' in just a week!


there's no doubt that people coalesced around biden as a "mainstream left" candidate, and that the democratic establishment did help push things in that direction. but i'm not going to make too big a deal about biden doing poorly in a couple of small states that are about as diverse as a ku klux klan rally. of course biden was going to start performing better when the primaries moved to states that actually had more black people than the utah jazz roster.

as for bernie, if he's got a hard cap at like one-quarter of the democratic base, maybe the problem is that he needs to do more to appeal to older voters, moderates and black. i guess it worked out for trump in 2016, but generally speaking it's not a great strategy to hope that enough long-shot candidates stick around so that you can win with 25 or 30% of the vote. plus, some polling was done about a warren endorsement and it showed that her endorsing bernie would have barely moved the needle. hell, some of the polling showed that her voters were more likely to go to biden, since her base was largely middle-aged and older white people from the suburbs, who saw her as progressive but also pragmatic.

and as was pointed out, if sanders surrogates wanted an endorsement from warren they probably shouldn't have spent so much time trying to force her out of the race by denouncing her as a fake progressive and republican-lite.
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