The Politics Thread

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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:11 pm

Hairyducked Idiot wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Hairyducked Idiot wrote:My entire argument is that maybe, just maybe, Democrats don’t need to make wholesale changes designed to court a new coalition because the coalition they have just won a national election with record turnout.

Its like 2016 and the 4 years of news afterwards never happened in your mind. How nice to be you.


Let’s see here.

After 2016: 0 D presidencies, 48 D-aligned Senators, 188 D house seats

After 2020: 1 D presidency, 48-50 D-aligned Senators, 222 D house seats

Whatever changes they made in the nominees between 2016 and 2020 must have been good ones. Sounds like the party’s in good hands


Man, when you make it sound like 2016-202 was just one big normal one, yeah, sure!
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:12 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Hairyducked Idiot wrote:I didn’t say they needed to be more conservative to hold on to them. I called the shift minor and relatively unimportant.


It's not, IMO. I've always thought it was a lurking problem of how the Republicans just needed to figure out how to marry their hatred of socially progressive politics, and how a ton of the minority voters who vote Democratic also have a negative view of a ton of socially progressive politics, but just stick with the Democrats by default because the Republicans can't help but be so xenophobic and racist.

Beats the horsefeathers outta me how the current Trump-influenced GOP seemed to have maybe cracked the code while just cranking up the racism and xenophobia, but I think it's a huge mistake to shrug this kind of thing off.

My entire argument is that maybe, just maybe, Democrats don’t need to make wholesale changes designed to court a new coalition because the coalition they have just won a national election with record turnout.


Man, wanting Democrats to just be more Democratic is as far as you can get from expecting "wholesale changes to court a new coalition."

And the "coalition" they just won with might as well be called the "No Trumps Allowed Club." That's a horsefeathers, horsefeathers horsefeathering coalition, where a bunch of the members are actively trying to chop down the tree their clubhouse is in.


Ok you might be selling me on this particular doom boner
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:13 pm

Hairyducked Idiot wrote:
big ball chunky time wrote:every time someone says "but progressive policies are popular! they've won elections!" they neglect the fact that the true progressives are winning very specific races in very specific locations. it's not exactly a path to victory on a national level right now or otherwise we'd be looking at president-elect bernie sanders or elizabeth warren.


I think you can get there with the right candidate. At the national level especially, sometimes candidate matters more than policy.

But progressives need to find that candidate. Whining that the mean moderates won’t get out of the way and let them win will never, ever get it done.

Telling Bernie to sit down and shut up would go a long way toward clearing the progressive side for someone with a real chance.


Biden and Obama both ran on very progressive platforms. Then they ran away from their very progressive platforms.

Unless you're arguing that a ton of the people that voted for them just assumed they were full of horsefeathers, or they just ignored their progressive rhetoric, don't at me with this, "we haven't had a progressive candidate that can win yet!" It's a total strawman to keep acting like a "progressive candidate" with widespread appeal has to be someone like Sanders or AOC.
Last edited by Sammy Sofa on Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:14 pm

Hairyducked Idiot wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
Hairyducked Idiot wrote:I didn’t say they needed to be more conservative to hold on to them. I called the shift minor and relatively unimportant.


It's not, IMO. I've always thought it was a lurking problem of how the Republicans just needed to figure out how to marry their hatred of socially progressive politics, and how a ton of the minority voters who vote Democratic also have a negative view of a ton of socially progressive politics, but just stick with the Democrats by default because the Republicans can't help but be so xenophobic and racist.

Beats the horsefeathers outta me how the current Trump-influenced GOP seemed to have maybe cracked the code while just cranking up the racism and xenophobia, but I think it's a huge mistake to shrug this kind of thing off.

My entire argument is that maybe, just maybe, Democrats don’t need to make wholesale changes designed to court a new coalition because the coalition they have just won a national election with record turnout.


Man, wanting Democrats to just be more Democratic is as far as you can get from expecting "wholesale changes to court a new coalition."

And the "coalition" they just won with might as well be called the "No Trumps Allowed Club." That's a horsefeathers, horsefeathers horsefeathering coalition, where a bunch of the members are actively trying to chop down the tree their clubhouse is in.


Ok you might be selling me on this particular doom boner


Let's face it: the only thing we're any good at is being complete and total misanthropes.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Rob » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:16 pm

With the traditional Thanksgiving dinners being smaller or non-existent for most of us, I just want to thank Kyle, Mojo, and Judas for the pointless political squabbling over the last few pages. None of you are my racist uncle... but for just a minute it felt like he was at the dinner table with us.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:16 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Hairyducked Idiot wrote:
big ball chunky time wrote:every time someone says "but progressive policies are popular! they've won elections!" they neglect the fact that the true progressives are winning very specific races in very specific locations. it's not exactly a path to victory on a national level right now or otherwise we'd be looking at president-elect bernie sanders or elizabeth warren.


I think you can get there with the right candidate. At the national level especially, sometimes candidate matters more than policy.

But progressives need to find that candidate. Whining that the mean moderates won’t get out of the way and let them win will never, ever get it done.

Telling Bernie to sit down and shut up would go a long way toward clearing the progressive side for someone with a real chance.


Biden and Obama both ran on very progressive platforms. Then they ran away from their very progressive platforms.

Unless you're arguing that a ton of the people that voted for them just assumed they were full of horsefeathers, or they just ignored their progressive rhetoric, don't at me with this, "we haven't had a progressive candidate that can win" yet! It's a total strawman to keep acting like a "progressive candidate" with widespread appealhas to be someone like Sanders or AOC.



If we are using a definition of progressive that fits Obama and Biden, then I don’t think Biden has lost the title yet
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:19 pm

Hairyducked Idiot wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
Hairyducked Idiot wrote:
I think you can get there with the right candidate. At the national level especially, sometimes candidate matters more than policy.

But progressives need to find that candidate. Whining that the mean moderates won’t get out of the way and let them win will never, ever get it done.

Telling Bernie to sit down and shut up would go a long way toward clearing the progressive side for someone with a real chance.


Biden and Obama both ran on very progressive platforms. Then they ran away from their very progressive platforms.

Unless you're arguing that a ton of the people that voted for them just assumed they were full of horsefeathers, or they just ignored their progressive rhetoric, don't at me with this, "we haven't had a progressive candidate that can win" yet! It's a total strawman to keep acting like a "progressive candidate" with widespread appealhas to be someone like Sanders or AOC.



If we are using a definition of progressive that fits Obama and Biden, then I don’t think Biden has lost the title yet


Look, like the Georgia runoffs, this is one of those things where I'd love to be wrong. But he's sure not filling me with much hope so far.

I'm also really down because I'll be stunned if there's not a full on government shutdown come December 11th, so there's a real rosy Christmas present I've got lined up until January 21st or so.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:19 pm

big ball chunky time wrote:every time someone says "but progressive policies are popular! they've won elections!" they neglect the fact that the true progressives are winning very specific races in very specific locations. it's not exactly a path to victory on a national level right now or otherwise we'd be looking at president-elect bernie sanders or elizabeth warren.

The Dems don't need to run a Bernie or Warren or AOC in a national election to win. They could easily not appoint austerity hawks and trash like Rham and get behind popular progressive measures like higher minimum wages and Medicare for all and reap political rewards for it. This isn't an either/or situation. I don't understand why they aren't. Just more lib pwning?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby big ball chunky time » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:26 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
big ball chunky time wrote:every time someone says "but progressive policies are popular! they've won elections!" they neglect the fact that the true progressives are winning very specific races in very specific locations. it's not exactly a path to victory on a national level right now or otherwise we'd be looking at president-elect bernie sanders or elizabeth warren.

The Dems don't need to run a Bernie or Warren or AOC in a national election to win. They could easily not appoint austerity hawks and trash like Rham and get behind popular progressive measures like higher minimum wages and Medicare for all and reap political rewards for it. This isn't an either/or situation. I don't understand why they aren't. Just more lib pwning?


i dont think anyone is arguing otherwise?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby gflore34 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:27 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
big ball chunky time wrote:every time someone says "but progressive policies are popular! they've won elections!" they neglect the fact that the true progressives are winning very specific races in very specific locations. it's not exactly a path to victory on a national level right now or otherwise we'd be looking at president-elect bernie sanders or elizabeth warren.

The Dems don't need to run a Bernie or Warren or AOC in a national election to win. They could easily not appoint austerity hawks and trash like Rham and get behind popular progressive measures like higher minimum wages and Medicare for all and reap political rewards for it. This isn't an either/or situation. I don't understand why they aren't. Just more lib pwning?


Amazing that policies attempting to help people that need the help or help in general are viewed as progressive.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:28 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:The Dems don't need to run a Bernie or Warren or AOC in a national election to win. They could easily not appoint austerity hawks and trash like Rham and get behind popular progressive measures like higher minimum wages and Medicare for all and reap political rewards for it. This isn't an either/or situation. I don't understand why they aren't. Just more lib pwning?


It's almost as if the donor class doesn't really want progressiveism.

Just waiting on Mike Bloomberg to swoop into GA with his billions to make sure Dems have a (minuscule, thanks Joe Manchin) chance at passing some stuff. Divided government totes does not benefit him!
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:37 pm

gflore34 wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
big ball chunky time wrote:every time someone says "but progressive policies are popular! they've won elections!" they neglect the fact that the true progressives are winning very specific races in very specific locations. it's not exactly a path to victory on a national level right now or otherwise we'd be looking at president-elect bernie sanders or elizabeth warren.

The Dems don't need to run a Bernie or Warren or AOC in a national election to win. They could easily not appoint austerity hawks and trash like Rham and get behind popular progressive measures like higher minimum wages and Medicare for all and reap political rewards for it. This isn't an either/or situation. I don't understand why they aren't. Just more lib pwning?


Amazing that policies attempting to help people that need the help or help in general are viewed as progressive.

That's been the trend, historically.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:38 pm

big ball chunky time wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
big ball chunky time wrote:every time someone says "but progressive policies are popular! they've won elections!" they neglect the fact that the true progressives are winning very specific races in very specific locations. it's not exactly a path to victory on a national level right now or otherwise we'd be looking at president-elect bernie sanders or elizabeth warren.

The Dems don't need to run a Bernie or Warren or AOC in a national election to win. They could easily not appoint austerity hawks and trash like Rham and get behind popular progressive measures like higher minimum wages and Medicare for all and reap political rewards for it. This isn't an either/or situation. I don't understand why they aren't. Just more lib pwning?


i dont think anyone is arguing otherwise?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:41 pm

But seriously, I don't see how you could have skipped over two pages of dismissing critiques from the left of passing up gimmie political and policy gains because a 120 year old Jew narrowly lost a few a national elections.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:47 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
big ball chunky time wrote:every time someone says "but progressive policies are popular! they've won elections!" they neglect the fact that the true progressives are winning very specific races in very specific locations. it's not exactly a path to victory on a national level right now or otherwise we'd be looking at president-elect bernie sanders or elizabeth warren.

The Dems don't need to run a Bernie or Warren or AOC in a national election to win. They could easily not appoint austerity hawks and trash like Rham and get behind popular progressive measures like higher minimum wages and Medicare for all and reap political rewards for it. This isn't an either/or situation. I don't understand why they aren't. Just more lib pwning?


Biden ran on a $15 minimum wage, and I think it's a bit of a stretch to extrapolate rumors of Rahm as transportation secretary to the ability to win state/national elections.

I get frustrated by the binary distinction here. Democratic establishment could definitely do more to embrace popular progressive policies and run campaigns more successfully than the less modern playbook they've been using. They have the weight to shift the conversation and need to not consider themselves at the mercy of average opinion with no influence over it. Progressives tend to oversimplify the electoral dynamics in purple to red areas(as this election illustrates turnout isn't a silver bullet/there are limits to just finding new voters). They also have a built in disadvantage of being the left most voice that will always have something complain about, and exacerbate it by yelling loudly about every potential grievance without any sense of priority. Everyone's favorite non-progressive Matt Yglesias made this point recently that conservatives have Core beliefs(in that conversation it was gun rights) that they will sacrifice otherwise politically favorable beliefs in order to preserve. I don't really know what that looks like for progressives(maybe I'm not reading the right things) because literally everything is framed as an issue where they must plant their flag and not budge.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:48 pm

In other news, Trump just pardoned Flynn.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Ding Dong Johnson » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:52 pm

Rob wrote:With the traditional Thanksgiving dinners being smaller or non-existent for most of us, I just want to thank Kyle, Mojo, and Judas for the pointless political squabbling over the last few pages. None of you are my racist uncle... but for just a minute it felt like he was at the dinner table with us.

And just like Thanksgiving I went and sat in the other room, ignoring them and watching basketball with my whiskey sour.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:52 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
big ball chunky time wrote:every time someone says "but progressive policies are popular! they've won elections!" they neglect the fact that the true progressives are winning very specific races in very specific locations. it's not exactly a path to victory on a national level right now or otherwise we'd be looking at president-elect bernie sanders or elizabeth warren.

The Dems don't need to run a Bernie or Warren or AOC in a national election to win. They could easily not appoint austerity hawks and trash like Rham and get behind popular progressive measures like higher minimum wages and Medicare for all and reap political rewards for it. This isn't an either/or situation. I don't understand why they aren't. Just more lib pwning?


Biden ran on a $15 minimum wage, and I think it's a bit of a stretch to extrapolate rumors of Rahm as transportation secretary to the ability to win state/national elections.

I get frustrated by the binary distinction here. Democratic establishment could definitely do more to embrace popular progressive policies and run campaigns more successfully than the less modern playbook they've been using. They have the weight to shift the conversation and need to not consider themselves at the mercy of average opinion with no influence over it. Progressives tend to oversimplify the electoral dynamics in purple to red areas(as this election illustrates turnout isn't a silver bullet/there are limits to just finding new voters). They also have a built in disadvantage of being the left most voice that will always have something complain about, and exacerbate it by yelling loudly about every potential grievance without any sense of priority. Everyone's favorite non-progressive Matt Yglesias made this point recently that conservatives have Core beliefs(in that conversation it was gun rights) that they will sacrifice otherwise politically favorable beliefs in order to preserve. I don't really know what that looks like for progressives(maybe I'm not reading the right things) because literally everything is framed as an issue where they must plant their flag and not budge.

I mean...budging is basically a way of life for progressives involved in any DNC mechanism, so I can't help but feel like you're pulling a Kyle and using a Bernie Bro cardboard cutout as a stand in for progressive policies and candidates.

It isn't just Rham, btw. He's just the most obvious and well-known example.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:01 pm

Ding Dong Johnson wrote:
Rob wrote:With the traditional Thanksgiving dinners being smaller or non-existent for most of us, I just want to thank Kyle, Mojo, and Judas for the pointless political squabbling over the last few pages. None of you are my racist uncle... but for just a minute it felt like he was at the dinner table with us.

And just like Thanksgiving I went and sat in the other room, ignoring them and watching basketball with my whiskey sour.

Yep I'm just gonna pop in every two pages or so until I see it's done.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Ding Dong Johnson » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:03 pm

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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:04 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:I mean...budging is basically a way of life for progressives involved in any DNC mechanism, so I can't help but feel like you're pulling a Kyle and using a Bernie Bro cardboard cutout as a stand in for progressive policies and candidates.


I think if you asked a bunch of people(heck, keep it to the people in this thread) to rank these progressive priorities from 1-5 on that wing's importance/emphasis: Minimum wage, Medicare for All, Police reform/racial justice, Fairer taxation/accountability for the 1%, immigration reform

How many different answers do you think I would get? Again, part of this is the structural element of not having a large contingent on either side of you politically, you definitionally have more to complain about and push for. But even as someone who agrees with the progressive position on most/all of these things, I think you can create unnecessary fatigue or adversarial situations when *everything* is consistently framed in a way perceived as non-negotiable or a grave miscarriage of justice.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:10 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote: I think you can create unnecessary fatigue or adversarial situations when *everything* is consistently framed in a way perceived as non-negotiable or a grave miscarriage of justice.

I again refer to the cardboard cutout referenced above.

I can only speak for myself when I say that I will never expect a national body to implicate all of the policies I support. I also don't expect the Dems to even implicate half of the policies I support that are popular. I just want a FEW of them. Otherwise, wtf are we even doing? Throw me a horsefeathering bone and I'll stfu for a few decades. And no, Obamacare doesn't buy a decade's worth good will.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:18 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote: I think you can create unnecessary fatigue or adversarial situations when *everything* is consistently framed in a way perceived as non-negotiable or a grave miscarriage of justice.

I again refer to the cardboard cutout referenced above.

I can only speak for myself when I say that I will never expect a national body to implicate all of the policies I support. I also don't expect the Dems to even implicate half of the policies I support that are popular. I just want a FEW of them. Otherwise, wtf are we even doing? Throw me a horsefeathering bone and I'll stfu for a few decades. And no, Obamacare doesn't buy a decade's worth good will.


Climate envoy? Student loan forgiveness?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:18 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote: I think you can create unnecessary fatigue or adversarial situations when *everything* is consistently framed in a way perceived as non-negotiable or a grave miscarriage of justice.

I again refer to the cardboard cutout referenced above.


I think that's a bit of a cop out. For one, where the perception comes from only matters to a certain degree, you can't be responsible for every idiot who happens to share ideology but it can't be ignored entirely when big chunks of people are having their perception colored. But even setting that aside, I'm largely talking about the actual politicians involved and their messaging, in particular nationally recognizable names like AOC and Bernie.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Tim » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:20 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:I mean...budging is basically a way of life for progressives involved in any DNC mechanism, so I can't help but feel like you're pulling a Kyle and using a Bernie Bro cardboard cutout as a stand in for progressive policies and candidates.


I think if you asked a bunch of people(heck, keep it to the people in this thread) to rank these progressive priorities from 1-5 on that wing's importance/emphasis: Minimum wage, Medicare for All, Police reform/racial justice, Fairer taxation/accountability for the 1%, immigration reform

How many different answers do you think I would get? Again, part of this is the structural element of not having a large contingent on either side of you politically, you definitionally have more to complain about and push for. But even as someone who agrees with the progressive position on most/all of these things, I think you can create unnecessary fatigue or adversarial situations when *everything* is consistently framed in a way perceived as non-negotiable or a grave miscarriage of justice.

You forgot climate change
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