The Politics Thread

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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:22 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote: I think you can create unnecessary fatigue or adversarial situations when *everything* is consistently framed in a way perceived as non-negotiable or a grave miscarriage of justice.

I again refer to the cardboard cutout referenced above.


I think that's a bit of a cop out. For one, where the perception comes from only matters to a certain degree, you can't be responsible for every idiot who happens to share ideology but it can't be ignored entirely when big chunks of people are having their perception colored. But even setting that aside, I'm largely talking about the actual politicians involved and their messaging, in particular nationally recognizable names like AOC and Bernie.

What is it you want AOC and Bernie to do, specifically?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby stitchface » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:22 pm

Tim wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:I mean...budging is basically a way of life for progressives involved in any DNC mechanism, so I can't help but feel like you're pulling a Kyle and using a Bernie Bro cardboard cutout as a stand in for progressive policies and candidates.


I think if you asked a bunch of people(heck, keep it to the people in this thread) to rank these progressive priorities from 1-5 on that wing's importance/emphasis: Minimum wage, Medicare for All, Police reform/racial justice, Fairer taxation/accountability for the 1%, immigration reform

How many different answers do you think I would get? Again, part of this is the structural element of not having a large contingent on either side of you politically, you definitionally have more to complain about and push for. But even as someone who agrees with the progressive position on most/all of these things, I think you can create unnecessary fatigue or adversarial situations when *everything* is consistently framed in a way perceived as non-negotiable or a grave miscarriage of justice.

You forgot climate change


also, election reform and constitutional reform
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:27 pm

Hairyducked Idiot wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote: I think you can create unnecessary fatigue or adversarial situations when *everything* is consistently framed in a way perceived as non-negotiable or a grave miscarriage of justice.

I again refer to the cardboard cutout referenced above.

I can only speak for myself when I say that I will never expect a national body to implicate all of the policies I support. I also don't expect the Dems to even implicate half of the policies I support that are popular. I just want a FEW of them. Otherwise, wtf are we even doing? Throw me a horsefeathering bone and I'll stfu for a few decades. And no, Obamacare doesn't buy a decade's worth good will.


Climate envoy? Student loan forgiveness?

Climate envoy sure, cool. It's a needed gimmie I can get behind. It's kind of the bare minimum of pretending to give a horsefeathers. Student loan forgiveness in a vaccuum is also cool, but there are a lot of people who never went to college that are a lot worse off that need the help. I'd prefer systematic changes to how school is funded than just dumping a pile of money on it. Won't decry dumping a pile of money most anywhere that doesn't go to the rich right now, tho.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:33 pm

As always, I appreciate a bunch of white guys casually dunking on black and brown people's cries for justice as if they'd only stop bitching so much and stop making it sound all so bad!
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:34 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:I again refer to the cardboard cutout referenced above.


I think that's a bit of a cop out. For one, where the perception comes from only matters to a certain degree, you can't be responsible for every idiot who happens to share ideology but it can't be ignored entirely when big chunks of people are having their perception colored. But even setting that aside, I'm largely talking about the actual politicians involved and their messaging, in particular nationally recognizable names like AOC and Bernie.

What is it you want AOC and Bernie to do, specifically?


Meaningfully communicate what is most important to them, instead of using the same urgent framing for every policy they have a position on.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:34 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:Student loan forgiveness in a vaccuum is also cool, but there are a lot of people who never went to college that are a lot worse off that need the help. I'd prefer systematic changes to how school is funded than just dumping a pile of money on it. Won't decry dumping a pile of money most anywhere that doesn't go to the rich right now, tho.



student loan forgiveness is something I struggle with as well. I have plenty of it, having a bachelors and masters from a big 10 school will do that, but I don't feel like the federal government bailing me out is going to benefit the next generation who deals with regressive policies at the state level that increases their debt tenfold of what mine is
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:36 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
I think that's a bit of a cop out. For one, where the perception comes from only matters to a certain degree, you can't be responsible for every idiot who happens to share ideology but it can't be ignored entirely when big chunks of people are having their perception colored. But even setting that aside, I'm largely talking about the actual politicians involved and their messaging, in particular nationally recognizable names like AOC and Bernie.

What is it you want AOC and Bernie to do, specifically?


Meaningfully communicate what is most important to them, instead of using the same urgent framing for every policy they have a position on.

How many crisis do you think exist at once? This was the opposite of specific.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:45 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:What is it you want AOC and Bernie to do, specifically?


Meaningfully communicate what is most important to them, instead of using the same urgent framing for every policy they have a position on.

How many crisis do you think exist at once? This was the opposite of specific.


I'm saying that according to these people, there are a lot of them! Climate, predatory lending, the pandemic, the pandemic in prisons, housing, police brutality, homelessness. When everything is urgent/important, nothing is urgent/important.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:48 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
Meaningfully communicate what is most important to them, instead of using the same urgent framing for every policy they have a position on.

How many crisis do you think exist at once? This was the opposite of specific.


I'm saying that according to these people, there are a lot of them! Climate, predatory lending, the pandemic, the pandemic in prisons, housing, police brutality, homelessness. When everything is urgent/important, nothing is urgent/important.


yes, but there are a lot of them, and they are all horsefeathering terrible
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:48 pm

Except when it all is urgent/important. It's nice if it isn't to you. Congrats for your privilege.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:51 pm

Dude needs to read this thread tho'
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:53 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
Meaningfully communicate what is most important to them, instead of using the same urgent framing for every policy they have a position on.

How many crisis do you think exist at once? This was the opposite of specific.


I'm saying that according to these people, there are a lot of them! Climate, predatory lending, the pandemic, the pandemic in prisons, housing, police brutality, homelessness. When everything is urgent/important, nothing is urgent/important.

Wow.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:53 pm

CyHawk_Cub wrote:Except when it all is urgent/important. It's nice if it isn't to you. Congrats for your privilege.


Good grief man, exhale. No one is questioning the importance of any of the policy levers here, it's about acknowledging that you cannot fix everything at once and that if you try to fix everything at once you may get even less done than if you had more meaningfully focused those energies.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:56 pm

CyHawk_Cub wrote:Dude needs to read this thread tho'


I’m perfectly capable of thinking those are the right thing to do without deluding myself into believing it will be the electoral equivalent of “then everybody clapped.”
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:58 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Hairyducked Idiot wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:I again refer to the cardboard cutout referenced above.

I can only speak for myself when I say that I will never expect a national body to implicate all of the policies I support. I also don't expect the Dems to even implicate half of the policies I support that are popular. I just want a FEW of them. Otherwise, wtf are we even doing? Throw me a horsefeathering bone and I'll stfu for a few decades. And no, Obamacare doesn't buy a decade's worth good will.


Climate envoy? Student loan forgiveness?

Climate envoy sure, cool. It's a needed gimmie I can get behind. It's kind of the bare minimum of pretending to give a horsefeathers. Student loan forgiveness in a vaccuum is also cool, but there are a lot of people who never went to college that are a lot worse off that need the help. I'd prefer systematic changes to how school is funded than just dumping a pile of money on it. Won't decry dumping a pile of money most anywhere that doesn't go to the rich right now, tho.


“Just throw me a bone” turns into “well, that bone wasn’t the exact perfect right shape and flavor so it doesn’t count” really fast.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:01 pm

And dispassionate detachment (yeah, I know, redundant) quickly sounds like white male privilege. Telling people they are hysterical for wanting social justice is rich as horsefeathers though.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:04 pm

CyHawk_Cub wrote:And dispassionate detachment (yeah, I know, redundant) quickly sounds like white male privilege. Telling people they are hysterical for wanting social justice is rich as horsefeathers though.


Sack up and start your local People’s Committee to replace the government then. Because that’s the only way you’re going to get every American injustice addressed both adequately and simultaneously
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Tim » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:05 pm

CyHawk_Cub wrote:And dispassionate detachment (yeah, I know, redundant) quickly sounds like white male privilege. Telling people they are hysterical for wanting social justice is rich as horsefeathers though.

Who, exactly, is saying that here?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:06 pm

Tim wrote:
CyHawk_Cub wrote:And dispassionate detachment (yeah, I know, redundant) quickly sounds like white male privilege. Telling people they are hysterical for wanting social justice is rich as horsefeathers though.

Who, exactly, is saying that here?

Exhale man, it's not all that.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:08 pm

Hairyducked Idiot wrote:
CyHawk_Cub wrote:And dispassionate detachment (yeah, I know, redundant) quickly sounds like white male privilege. Telling people they are hysterical for wanting social justice is rich as horsefeathers though.


Sack up and start your local People’s Committee to replace the government then. Because that’s the only way you’re going to get every American injustice addressed both adequately and simultaneously

You don't have a clue what I have done and am doing. And I don't need or want acknowledgment in any event.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:09 pm

CyHawk_Cub wrote:
Hairyducked Idiot wrote:
CyHawk_Cub wrote:And dispassionate detachment (yeah, I know, redundant) quickly sounds like white male privilege. Telling people they are hysterical for wanting social justice is rich as horsefeathers though.


Sack up and start your local People’s Committee to replace the government then. Because that’s the only way you’re going to get every American injustice addressed both adequately and simultaneously

You don't have a clue what I have done and am doing. And I don't need or want acknowledgment in any event.


how do i join
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:13 pm

CyHawk_Cub wrote:
Hairyducked Idiot wrote:
CyHawk_Cub wrote:And dispassionate detachment (yeah, I know, redundant) quickly sounds like white male privilege. Telling people they are hysterical for wanting social justice is rich as horsefeathers though.


Sack up and start your local People’s Committee to replace the government then. Because that’s the only way you’re going to get every American injustice addressed both adequately and simultaneously

You don't have a clue what I have done and am doing. And I don't need or want acknowledgment in any event.


I don’t mean you, personally. I mean the American left.

It wants to perpetually occupy a space where it gets to complain that the establishment is fundamentally unjust and won’t let it have a seat at the table.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:15 pm

Hairyducked Idiot wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Hairyducked Idiot wrote:
Climate envoy? Student loan forgiveness?

Climate envoy sure, cool. It's a needed gimmie I can get behind. It's kind of the bare minimum of pretending to give a horsefeathers. Student loan forgiveness in a vaccuum is also cool, but there are a lot of people who never went to college that are a lot worse off that need the help. I'd prefer systematic changes to how school is funded than just dumping a pile of money on it. Won't decry dumping a pile of money most anywhere that doesn't go to the rich right now, tho.


“Just throw me a bone” turns into “well, that bone wasn’t the exact perfect right shape and flavor so it doesn’t count” really fast.

I'll stand on my head and applaud at the same time if they cancel student loan debt. But as long as we are also on the subject that not all problems can be solved at once and there are priorities in addressing them (which are different than horsefeathering tweeting about important issues) canceling student loan debt is low on my wish list.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:17 pm

Tim wrote:
CyHawk_Cub wrote:And dispassionate detachment (yeah, I know, redundant) quickly sounds like white male privilege. Telling people they are hysterical for wanting social justice is rich as horsefeathers though.

Who, exactly, is saying that here?

I think its the guy that told someone to sack up and create a grassroots political party.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:23 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Tim wrote:
CyHawk_Cub wrote:And dispassionate detachment (yeah, I know, redundant) quickly sounds like white male privilege. Telling people they are hysterical for wanting social justice is rich as horsefeathers though.

Who, exactly, is saying that here?

I think its the guy that told someone to sack up and create a grassroots political party.


Actually, I said sack up and overthrow the government. You’re not getting true justice in the legacy of a settler/slaver multigenocidal society.
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