Politics & Current Events

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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Thrilho » Fri May 11, 2018 8:59 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:Yeah, Trump happening is basically the best possible argument FOR "superdelegates." It's not a concept I'm going to die for, but I also don't think it's remotely close to being a pressing issue that needs to or should be done away with. They had absolutely zero impact on the Dem nomination race, and if Sanders had actually won a majority of states I seriously doubt they would have stepped in.

Much like the president themself, superdelegates are more a trailing indicator than a leading one. The Democratic party is just still not that progressive, even if its leaps and bounds more progressive than it was 15 years ago.

Now try to explain that to Bernie bros.

Explaining anything to anyone is going to be a difficult task when you lead off the conversation calling them a Bernie Bro. But hey, some people like to sound like a condescending prick, so have at it.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Thrilho » Fri May 11, 2018 9:08 pm

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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby UK » Fri May 11, 2018 9:16 pm

SouthSideRyan wrote:
UK wrote:
squally1313 wrote:To your point about muddying the waters, you almost have to wonder how much the Democratic debates, in their current form, really help the party. It seems like everyone tries to create some unique viewpoint in the hopes of generating some edge over the other candidates, and all it eventually does is divide democratic voters and then discourages the voters who took the losing team's side. Obviously we need some method to find the best candidate, but I really don't want it to devolve into what we saw on the Republican side in 2016.


The 1st thing that needs to change in the nomination process is the idiotic superdelegates.


Superdelegates would’ve saved us from President Trump. There’s nothing wrong with them


The optics of interfering with Democracy is greater than the advantage of avoiding a lunatic nomination or the minimal chance of actually having a nomination impacted by superdelegates like losing the popular vote but winning the nomination b/c of them.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Thrilho » Fri May 11, 2018 9:30 pm

DiceMan4221 wrote:Oh of course. Booker will not and cannot be a progressive darling. But you clearly don't have to be a progressive to win the Dem primary. He is a very good speaker. He's immensely more likable and authentic than Hillary. He can raise a lot of money because he's clearly willing to be on the take from corporate interests and he canvassess like a man possessed. If he runs he's probably going to win the primary and then the general. Only way he wouldn't win the primary is if the progressive field thins early and Biden/Hickenlooper splits the establishment vote with him, imo.

I know you don't have to be a progressive to win the Dem primary. 2016 was a two horse race with progressive vs establishment and the establishment candidate got more votes.

But the implication in your comment is that the progressive side will be splintered while the centrist side will united. If Biden is in the race I'd say the centrist side is already pretty divided. Maybe the progressives will be as well, but I'd hope that they can get united behind someone. Maybe it won't be as pure as all this though. Booker was a co-sponsor for the Medicare-for-All bill from late last year and that alone would be enough for me vote for him over Biden if Biden is still not on board.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Fri May 11, 2018 10:13 pm

Thrilho wrote:
DiceMan4221 wrote:Oh of course. Booker will not and cannot be a progressive darling. But you clearly don't have to be a progressive to win the Dem primary. He is a very good speaker. He's immensely more likable and authentic than Hillary. He can raise a lot of money because he's clearly willing to be on the take from corporate interests and he canvassess like a man possessed. If he runs he's probably going to win the primary and then the general. Only way he wouldn't win the primary is if the progressive field thins early and Biden/Hickenlooper splits the establishment vote with him, imo.

I know you don't have to be a progressive to win the Dem primary. 2016 was a two horse race with progressive vs establishment and the establishment candidate got more votes.

But the implication in your comment is that the progressive side will be splintered while the centrist side will united. If Biden is in the race I'd say the centrist side is already pretty divided. Maybe the progressives will be as well, but I'd hope that they can get united behind someone. Maybe it won't be as pure as all this though. Booker was a co-sponsor for the Medicare-for-All bill from late last year and that alone would be enough for me vote for him over Biden if Biden is still not on board.

Yeah, but Booker always carefully balances with progressive image with what his financial backers want. Example A: https://newrepublic.com/minutes/139820/cory-bookers-explanation-voting-cheap-prescription-drugs-doesnt-track
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Fri May 11, 2018 10:14 pm

So, from what I've been able to discern from early twitter non-sense...the attorney representing the women accusing Schniederman is asking the judge to throw out past correspondence they had with...Michael Cohen? Am I getting this right?!
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby SouthSideRyan » Fri May 11, 2018 10:25 pm

UK wrote:
SouthSideRyan wrote:
UK wrote:
The 1st thing that needs to change in the nomination process is the idiotic superdelegates.


Superdelegates would’ve saved us from President Trump. There’s nothing wrong with them


The optics of interfering with Democracy is greater than the advantage of avoiding a lunatic nomination or the minimal chance of actually having a nomination impacted by superdelegates like losing the popular vote but winning the nomination b/c of them.


Nobody gave a horsefeathers when Hillary had more popular votes than Obama.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Fri May 11, 2018 10:50 pm

Thrilho wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:Yeah, Trump happening is basically the best possible argument FOR "superdelegates." It's not a concept I'm going to die for, but I also don't think it's remotely close to being a pressing issue that needs to or should be done away with. They had absolutely zero impact on the Dem nomination race, and if Sanders had actually won a majority of states I seriously doubt they would have stepped in.

Much like the president themself, superdelegates are more a trailing indicator than a leading one. The Democratic party is just still not that progressive, even if its leaps and bounds more progressive than it was 15 years ago.

Now try to explain that to Bernie bros.

Explaining anything to anyone is going to be a difficult task when you lead off the conversation calling them a Bernie Bro. But hey, some people like to sound like a condescending prick, so have at it.

Bernie bros are the pricks.

And I kinda hate having to explain this but not every person who voted for Bernie are Bernie bros. That is a specific subset of Democrats who have their head up their ass and are, in a word, pricks.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Thrilho » Fri May 11, 2018 11:22 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Thrilho wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:Much like the president themself, superdelegates are more a trailing indicator than a leading one. The Democratic party is just still not that progressive, even if its leaps and bounds more progressive than it was 15 years ago.

Now try to explain that to Bernie bros.

Explaining anything to anyone is going to be a difficult task when you lead off the conversation calling them a Bernie Bro. But hey, some people like to sound like a condescending prick, so have at it.

Bernie bros are the pricks.

And I kinda hate having to explain this but not every person who voted for Bernie are Bernie bros. That is a specific subset of Democrats who have their head up their ass and are, in a word, pricks.

If you hate having to explain this then maybe don't use the term? Because I don't think all Bernie voters understand the nuance and a lot of them voted the same way you did in the general election. And a lot of them got called Bernie Bros through the whole primary. And some of them probably view the term a bit like me, where it sounds like the sort of term that is dividing the nation right now. A bit like Liberal Snowflake. A term that is created just to make ones blood boil and foster an inability for two people with similar views to even have a conversation.

Then, the "now try to explain that to a ____." That sentiment indicates that a pretty wide swath of the public is a moron who can't understand something. So now let's break down how much of the country is comprised of fools who can't understand things. What do you think about Trump voters? Ok, now conservatives who didn't vote for Trump. Now people who didn't vote. Now people who voted for Bernie and don't meet this line you've created to be worthy of "voted for Bernie but aren't a Bernie Bro." How many of these people are straight up horsefeathers who don't deserve the time of day?

I just wish that people would approach things with a little more nuance. We are being divided and calling other people names is not helping the cause.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Thrilho » Fri May 11, 2018 11:23 pm

DiceMan4221 wrote:Yeah, but Booker always carefully balances with progressive image with what his financial backers want. Example A: https://newrepublic.com/minutes/139820/cory-bookers-explanation-voting-cheap-prescription-drugs-doesnt-track

Yeah, saying that one issue alone would be enough for me to vote for Booker was a stretch and that article is a perfect example. Like many, he'll try to seem like a progressive in the headlines, but then undermine those efforts when it comes down to the details. That's why I'm hoping for someone who has been fairly unwavering in pushing the things they purport to care about.

I'd personally prefer those things be the most socialistic, left leaning ideals but failing that then at least someone who I have some confidence will carry through on what they say they're going to do. That's one big reason why I hated the idea of the Zuck running. He can say all the pleasant things he wants about pushing Medicare for All, but who knows what he'll actually do. Someone like Merkley has a long track record of doing things that weren't always easy or popular.

Of course, the president doesn't write the laws. Even if the dems win the both houses and the presidency it'll be herding a bunch of cats just like with the ACA. The only way we'll get a bunch of shiny new liberal bills is if the electorate votes overwhelmingly for progressives in the next two elections. This primary season has all but obliterated my hopes of that happening. That guy Wolf whose flyer I posted a few months back got wrecked by Mike Quigley. He had just platform I wanted with universal healthcare, free tuition, environmental protection, strong unions, increased minimum wages, and legal weed. And he came in third with 9% of the vote.

So while I do believe that these progressive things are in the best interest of most Americans I am aware that not all Americans agree. And not all democrats agree. And that I may not be right. And that if my guy doesn't win it doesn't mean they got robbed by the system. Still, I'm going to start out every election season pulling for someone who will take from the rich and give to the poor. If that doesn't work out, I'll pull the blue lever.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Sat May 12, 2018 12:25 am

Thrilho wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Thrilho wrote:Explaining anything to anyone is going to be a difficult task when you lead off the conversation calling them a Bernie Bro. But hey, some people like to sound like a condescending prick, so have at it.

Bernie bros are the pricks.

And I kinda hate having to explain this but not every person who voted for Bernie are Bernie bros. That is a specific subset of Democrats who have their head up their ass and are, in a word, pricks.

If you hate having to explain this then maybe don't use the term? Because I don't think all Bernie voters understand the nuance and a lot of them voted the same way you did in the general election. And a lot of them got called Bernie Bros through the whole primary. And some of them probably view the term a bit like me, where it sounds like the sort of term that is dividing the nation right now. A bit like Liberal Snowflake. A term that is created just to make ones blood boil and foster an inability for two people with similar views to even have a conversation.

Then, the "now try to explain that to a ____." That sentiment indicates that a pretty wide swath of the public is a moron who can't understand something. So now let's break down how much of the country is comprised of fools who can't understand things. What do you think about Trump voters? Ok, now conservatives who didn't vote for Trump. Now people who didn't vote. Now people who voted for Bernie and don't meet this line you've created to be worthy of "voted for Bernie but aren't a Bernie Bro." How many of these people are straight up horsefeathers who don't deserve the time of day?

I just wish that people would approach things with a little more nuance. We are being divided and calling other people names is not helping the cause.

Meh, I really thought most of my intended audience on this board understood the nuance between Bernie voter and Bernie Bro. I'm not going up and insulting random acquaintances with Bernie Bro drops.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Sat May 12, 2018 12:43 am

Thrilho wrote:Of course, the president doesn't write the laws. Even if the dems win the both houses and the presidency it'll be herding a bunch of cats just like with the ACA. The only way we'll get a bunch of shiny new liberal bills is if the electorate votes overwhelmingly for progressives in the next two elections. This primary season has all but obliterated my hopes of that happening. That guy Wolf whose flyer I posted a few months back got wrecked by Mike Quigley. He had just platform I wanted with universal healthcare, free tuition, environmental protection, strong unions, increased minimum wages, and legal weed. And he came in third with 9% of the voter

Wolf was a legitimately bad candidate and Sameena rightfully way outpaced him in the anti-establishment field against Quigley. Hell I liked Schwartzburg better than Wolf.

But Quigley is a good rep in his own right which is why he took the field so easily. That said I hope Sameena doesn't go away. Wolf can go get shot into the moon for all I care.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Thrilho » Sat May 12, 2018 1:22 am

WrigleyField 22 wrote:Meh, I really thought most of my intended audience on this board understood the nuance between Bernie voter and Bernie Bro. I'm not going up and insulting random acquaintances with Bernie Bro drops.

Maybe they do and it's just me. It's been grinding my gears though and this was just the spot I chose to drop it in. The SSR comment about Bernie's "weirdo followers" pouting already had me on tilt. This topic of the democratic platform and the 2020 nominee is only going to get talked about more coming up, and it's going to be easy to fall into a tribal mentality. I think a lot of us fall in a similar spot on the issues, and it's a bummer if everything going forward is going to have to get couched in terms of the 2016 election. So figured I'd say something there.

As far as Wolf, I didn't know much about him when I posted that stuff about his platform a few months back and don't know that much now. He wasn't in my district, so I didn't take much time to learn about him. A quick look around google tells me he may not have been the best candidate. So maybe it was more the man than the platform that did him in and that platform has better than 9% approval. Really, I brought him up as a tool to persuade the reader that I understand that the country isn't necessarily foaming at the mouth to upend the incumbent dems and hand it all over to the far left.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby UK » Sat May 12, 2018 2:14 am

SouthSideRyan wrote:
UK wrote:
SouthSideRyan wrote:
Superdelegates would’ve saved us from President Trump. There’s nothing wrong with them


The optics of interfering with Democracy is greater than the advantage of avoiding a lunatic nomination or the minimal chance of actually having a nomination impacted by superdelegates like losing the popular vote but winning the nomination b/c of them.


Nobody gave a horsefeathers when Hillary had more popular votes than Obama.


Iirc, Obama wasn't on the Michigan primary. This gave Hillary more votes. Had he put his name, he would have had more votes.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Sat May 12, 2018 2:44 am

Thrilho wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:Meh, I really thought most of my intended audience on this board understood the nuance between Bernie voter and Bernie Bro. I'm not going up and insulting random acquaintances with Bernie Bro drops.

Maybe they do and it's just me. It's been grinding my gears though and this was just the spot I chose to drop it in. The SSR comment about Bernie's "weirdo followers" pouting already had me on tilt. This topic of the democratic platform and the 2020 nominee is only going to get talked about more coming up, and it's going to be easy to fall into a tribal mentality. I think a lot of us fall in a similar spot on the issues, and it's a bummer if everything going forward is going to have to get couched in terms of the 2016 election. So figured I'd say something there.

As far as Wolf, I didn't know much about him when I posted that stuff about his platform a few months back and don't know that much now. He wasn't in my district, so I didn't take much time to learn about him. A quick look around google tells me he may not have been the best candidate. So maybe it was more the man than the platform that did him in and that platform has better than 9% approval. Really, I brought him up as a tool to persuade the reader that I understand that the country isn't necessarily foaming at the mouth to upend the incumbent dems and hand it all over to the far left.

Throwing a bunch of populisty things on a website shouldn't be confused with a platform, IMO.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Thrilho » Sat May 12, 2018 3:23 am

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Thrilho wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:Meh, I really thought most of my intended audience on this board understood the nuance between Bernie voter and Bernie Bro. I'm not going up and insulting random acquaintances with Bernie Bro drops.

Maybe they do and it's just me. It's been grinding my gears though and this was just the spot I chose to drop it in. The SSR comment about Bernie's "weirdo followers" pouting already had me on tilt. This topic of the democratic platform and the 2020 nominee is only going to get talked about more coming up, and it's going to be easy to fall into a tribal mentality. I think a lot of us fall in a similar spot on the issues, and it's a bummer if everything going forward is going to have to get couched in terms of the 2016 election. So figured I'd say something there.

As far as Wolf, I didn't know much about him when I posted that stuff about his platform a few months back and don't know that much now. He wasn't in my district, so I didn't take much time to learn about him. A quick look around google tells me he may not have been the best candidate. So maybe it was more the man than the platform that did him in and that platform has better than 9% approval. Really, I brought him up as a tool to persuade the reader that I understand that the country isn't necessarily foaming at the mouth to upend the incumbent dems and hand it all over to the far left.

Throwing a bunch of populisty things on a website shouldn't be confused with a platform, IMO.

With those 6 things on the website I've got a better idea of what that guy stands for than what the democratic party stands for. You've apparently got Schumer and Pelosi showing up to rallies with 10 page documents and "better jobs better pizza." Maybe those six things don't comprise a full platform, but that's about as much attention span as anyone has these days. Figure out the six things and put the rest in the appendix.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Bobson Dugnutt » Sat May 12, 2018 4:56 am

wolf is a garbage person and it’s a good thing he lost.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Thrilho » Sat May 12, 2018 5:08 am

Bobson Dugnutt wrote:wolf is a garbage person and it’s a good thing he lost.

Okey dokey, just read this article and YUCK. So the 9% vote really says nothing about what anyone in the country thinks about those six issues as a platform. I'd like the dems to tighten up their message but I'll try and understand the people I use as examples a bit better in the future.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/ ... ate-444371
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby Bobson Dugnutt » Sat May 12, 2018 5:12 am

Thrilho wrote:
Bobson Dugnutt wrote:wolf is a garbage person and it’s a good thing he lost.

Okey dokey, just read this article and YUCK. So the 9% vote really says nothing about what anyone in the country thinks about those six issues as a platform. I'd like the dems to tighten up their message but I'll try and understand the people I use as examples a bit better in the future.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/ ... ate-444371


honestly, like you, i was in favor of many of his platforms, but literally everything that came out about the man showed what a piece of horsefeathers he is. it was pretty disappointing.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Sat May 12, 2018 2:40 pm

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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby SouthSideRyan » Sat May 12, 2018 3:36 pm

UK wrote:
SouthSideRyan wrote:
UK wrote:
The optics of interfering with Democracy is greater than the advantage of avoiding a lunatic nomination or the minimal chance of actually having a nomination impacted by superdelegates like losing the popular vote but winning the nomination b/c of them.


Nobody gave a horsefeathers when Hillary had more popular votes than Obama.


Iirc, Obama wasn't on the Michigan primary. This gave Hillary more votes. Had he put his name, he would have had more votes.


Clinton led Obama by a fairly substantial margin in all polling prior to the removal of most serious candidates from the ballot, though they were a few months out from the election date. Given the voting results in Ohio and Pennsylvania, I'd expect she'd have led in total votes. Obama won the nomination because of his performance in caucuses, I'm not complaining, I preferred him to her at the time and with hindsight, but if the situations were reversed there'd be a horsefeathers about the nominating process being fixed with Clinton winning through caucuses.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Sat May 12, 2018 4:07 pm

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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby mul21 » Sat May 12, 2018 8:23 pm

Is there a reason Jason Kander isn’t mentioned anywhere? He seems really progressive and has a military background that may appeal to some of the non-existent middle ground.
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby SouthSideRyan » Sat May 12, 2018 9:05 pm

mul21 wrote:Is there a reason Jason Kander isn’t mentioned anywhere? He seems really progressive and has a military background that may appeal to some of the non-existent middle ground.


I feel like he had to win that senate seat to manage 2020
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Re: Politics & Current Events

Postby CubmanPi » Sat May 12, 2018 10:24 pm

I am glad there hasn't been too much branding or attention on the Democrats' next POTUS candidate. The conservative media machine runs almost exclusively on fear of liberal boogeymen, and the less time we have any "obvious next choices" for democratic candidate, the less opportunity the Republican Congress has to come up with the next Benghazi.
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