#MeToo

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Re: #MeToo

Postby Old Style » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:54 pm

Should I type slower so you can understand?

P-R-E-T-T-Y R-A-R-E
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:58 pm

Old Style wrote:Should I type slower so you can understand?

P-R-E-T-T-Y R-A-R-E


So if you agree that they are very, very rare, then why did you so readily bring it up as a possibility in regards to a celebrity who has been accused by multiple women of sexual misconduct/assault?

Like, if you tell us not to go outside because we could get struck by lightning, but then immediately turn around and say you understand how exceedingly unlikely it is to be struck by lightning, that's oscillating wildly from one end to the other pretty bizarrely. It's almost as if you were....just asking questions.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Banedon » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:00 pm

Old Style wrote:Should I type slower so you can understand?

P-R-E-T-T-Y R-A-R-E


So why are you making the argument at all? Do you feel like we should spend tons of resources investigating possible voter fraud? Actual instances are pretty rare but you never know!!
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Re: #MeToo

Postby javy knows my name » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:08 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:Again, false reporting of sexual crimes shows little variance statistically from other crimes, so if one is truly worried that this is some kind of common or widespread problem with sexual crimes, then presumably they're terrified that it's happening with everything else, too. Fortunately, it's not. Things like the Duke lacrosse case and the UVA Rolling Stone story are unfortunate extreme outliers, and anyone trying to act like that's anything even close to resembling some kind of a norm or likely scenario is either just tremendously uninformed or willfully trying to resist believing these types of accusations.

A good concise breakdown of this:

https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-f ... cusations/


From that article: "Over half of false rape accusations are made by someone other than the alleged victim"

So not only are they exceedingly rare, it's rarer still that they come from the purported victim. Also now we have...7 allegations against Franco in this thread alone? So it's time to shut the horsefeathers up, victim blamers
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Re: #MeToo

Postby TBS Playoffs Insider » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:08 pm

this horsefeathers must just love pineapple express or something, how bizarre
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Old Style » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:17 pm

TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:this horsefeathers must just love pineapple express or something, how bizarre

Never seen it. Probably haven’t even seen more than one Franco movie altogether. Not sure why this accusation smelled weird to me but it did. And then I felt compelled to continue responding because so many of you were over the top in your “IT NEVER HAPPENS” stupidity. I probably agree with you guys about 99% of the time on this subject.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Banedon » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:19 pm

Thread

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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:21 pm

Banedon wrote:Thread



That's a legit good apology by Harmon, something that's even more rare than false accusations in these situations.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:22 pm

Old Style wrote:
TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:this horsefeathers must just love pineapple express or something, how bizarre

Never seen it. Probably haven’t even seen more than one Franco movie altogether. Not sure why this accusation smelled weird to me but it did. And then I felt compelled to continue responding because so many of you were over the top in your “IT NEVER HAPPENS” stupidity. I probably agree with you guys about 99% of the time on this subject.


You repeatedly made it very clear about how much it bothers you how quick we are to "convict" people over this sort of thing.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Cubfanintheknow » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:30 pm

Old Style wrote:Never seen it. Probably haven’t even seen more than one Franco movie altogether. Not sure why this accusation smelled weird to me but it did. And then I felt compelled to continue responding because so many of you were over the top in your “IT NEVER HAPPENS” stupidity. I probably agree with you guys about 99% of the time on this subject.


You may (MAY) have a point if any of these men have only one accuser. But they don’t. They’ve all had multiple women stepping forward. There’s no collusion on the part of the women, it’s the pattern of the abuser.

NOTE: Edited for grammar.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Banedon » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:35 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Banedon wrote:Thread



That's a legit good apology by Harmon, something that's even more rare than false accusations in these situations.


"You can cause a lot of damage that is 'technically legal'"
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Banedon » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:42 pm

Here's a transcript of the Harmon apology, although it loses the emotion that he clearly has when doing it.

https://www.spin.com/2018/01/dan-harmon ... z-podcast/
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Re: #MeToo

Postby javy knows my name » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:45 pm

Banedon wrote:Here's a transcript of the Harmon apology, although it loses the emotion that he clearly has when doing it.

https://www.spin.com/2018/01/dan-harmon ... z-podcast/


I dropped out during the freestyle, can someone point to the spot I need to go to hear the apology?
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Banedon » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:47 pm

javy knows my name wrote:
Banedon wrote:Here's a transcript of the Harmon apology, although it loses the emotion that he clearly has when doing it.

https://www.spin.com/2018/01/dan-harmon ... z-podcast/


I dropped out during the freestyle, can someone point to the spot I need to go to hear the apology?


18:38
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Re: #MeToo

Postby javy knows my name » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:49 pm

Banedon wrote:
javy knows my name wrote:
Banedon wrote:Here's a transcript of the Harmon apology, although it loses the emotion that he clearly has when doing it.

https://www.spin.com/2018/01/dan-harmon ... z-podcast/


I dropped out during the freestyle, can someone point to the spot I need to go to hear the apology?


18:38


I super appreciate this, thank you
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neely wrote:but in reality
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:55 pm

Banedon wrote:Here's a transcript of the Harmon apology, although it loses the emotion that he clearly has when doing it.

https://www.spin.com/2018/01/dan-harmon ... z-podcast/


Everyone really, really, really should read this:

I was attracted to an employee. I really want to be really careful about that language because a huge part of the problem is a culture of feeling things that you think are unique and significant because they are happening to you and saying things like ‘I had feelings for’ and ‘I fell for’ and all these things. The most clinical way I can put it in fessing up to my crimes is that I was attracted to a writer I had power over because I was a show runner and I knew enough to know that these feelings were bad news.

That was easy enough to know. I knew that they ran the risk of undercutting people’s faith in my judgement, her faith in her talent, the other writers’ respect for me, the entire production, the audience. I knew I wasn’t doing anybody any favors by feeling these things and so I did the cowardly, easiest, laziest thing you can do with feelings like that and didn’t deal with them and in not dealing with them I made everybody else deal with them, especially her. Flirty, creepy, everything other than overt enough to constitute betraying your live-in girlfriend who you’re going home to every night, who is actually smart enough and respectful enough to ask you ‘do you have feelings for that young writer that you’re talking about, that you’re paying all this attention to?’ and saying to her ‘no,’ because the trick is if you lie to yourself, you can lie to everybody. It’s really easy.

And so that’s what I continued to do telling myself and anybody that threatened to confront me with it that if you thought what I was doing was creepy or sexist or unprofessional it was because you were the sexist or jealous. I was supporting this person, I’m a mentor, I’m a feminist, it’s your problem, not mine. You’re the one who actually is seeing things through that lens.

And so I let myself keep doing it and it’s not as if this person didn’t repeatedly communicate to me the idea that what I was doing was divesting her of a recourse to integrity. I just didn’t hear it because it didn’t profit me to hear it, and this was, after all, happening to me, right? After a season of playing it that way, I broke up with my girlfriend, who I had lied to the whole time, while lying to myself. Lied to her about why I was breaking up with her, because I thought that would make having inappropriate feelings for a co-worker appropriate if I wasn’t involved.

I want you to be the one to examine this and every step of the way decide for yourself where I’m making mistakes. I don’t want to explain to you what I’ve learned. I want you to look at this and I want it to sound relatively unremarkable to you, because that’s the danger. I broke up with my girlfriend and then I went right full steam into creeping on my employee. Now it was even less appropriate, after all. Now I wasn’t in danger of being a bad person. After that season, I got overt about my feelings after it wrapped. I said ‘I love you,’ and she said the same thing she had been saying the entire time, in one language or another, ‘Please, don’t you understand that focusing on me like this, preferring me like this, liking me like this, I can’t say no to it and when you do it, it makes me unable to know whether I’m good at my job.'”

And because I finally got to the point where I said to her ‘I love you’ because that’s what I thought it was, when you target somebody for two years. And it was therefore rejected that way, I was humiliated. So, I continued to do the cowardly thing. I continued to do the selfish thing. Now I wanted to teach her a lesson. I wanted to show her that if she didn’t like being liked in that way then, oh boy, she should get over herself. After all, if you’re just going to be a writer then this is how ‘just writers’ get treated. And that was probably the darkest of it all. I’m going to assume when she tweets about it and refers to ‘trauma’ that’s probably it. I drank. I took pills. I crushed on her and resented her for not reciprocating it and the entire time I was the one writing her paychecks and in control of whether she stayed or went and whether she felt good about herself or not, and said horrible things. Just treated her cruelly, pointedly, things I would never, ever would have done if she had been male and if I had never had those feelings for her.

And I lied to myself the entire time about it. And I lost my job. I ruined my show. I betrayed the audience. I destroyed everything. And I damaged her internal compass. And I moved on. I’ve never done it before and I will never do it again, but I certainly wouldn’t have been able to do it if I had any respect for women. On a fundamental level, I was thinking about them as different creatures. I was thinking about the ones that I liked as having some special role in my life and I did it all by not thinking about it. So, I just want to say, in addition to obviously being sorry, but that’s really not the important thing, I want to say I did it by not thinking about it and I got away with it by not thinking about it. And if she hadn’t mentioned something on Twitter, I would have continued to not have to not think about it, although I did walk around with my stomach in knots about it, but I wouldn’t have had to talk about it.

The last and most important thing I can say is just think about it. No matter who you are at work, no matter where you work, in what field you’re in, no matter what position you have over, under, or side by side with somebody, just think about it. Because if you don’t think about it, you’re going to get away with not thinking about it and you can cause a lot of damage that is technically legal and hurts everybody.

And I think we’re living in a good time right now because we’re not gonna to get away with it anymore. If we can make it part of our culture that we think about it and possibly talk about it, then maybe we can get to a better place where that stuff doesn’t happen.

So that’s it. Please don’t hurt her. Please don’t make this worse on anybody but me.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Old Style » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:58 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Old Style wrote:
TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:this horsefeathers must just love pineapple express or something, how bizarre

Never seen it. Probably haven’t even seen more than one Franco movie altogether. Not sure why this accusation smelled weird to me but it did. And then I felt compelled to continue responding because so many of you were over the top in your “IT NEVER HAPPENS” stupidity. I probably agree with you guys about 99% of the time on this subject.


You repeatedly made it very clear about how much it bothers you how quick we are to "convict" people over this sort of thing.

At the time I originally posted I had only read the accusation from the actress that was paid to do a nude scene she agreed to but then regretted it and one from an ex-girlfriend who had tweeted some questionable things that made about 1% of me think that maaaaaaaybe the allegations she was making were untrue. It was clear from the start that Franco is a creep so I believed that the story from the ex was likely true. Now that numerous other women have accused him of misconduct I think there's no doubt that he's guilty.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:03 pm

Old Style wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
Old Style wrote:Never seen it. Probably haven’t even seen more than one Franco movie altogether. Not sure why this accusation smelled weird to me but it did. And then I felt compelled to continue responding because so many of you were over the top in your “IT NEVER HAPPENS” stupidity. I probably agree with you guys about 99% of the time on this subject.


You repeatedly made it very clear about how much it bothers you how quick we are to "convict" people over this sort of thing.

At the time I originally posted I had only read the accusation from the actress that was paid to do a nude scene she agreed to but then regretted it and one from an ex-girlfriend who had tweeted some questionable things that made about 1% of me think that maaaaaaaybe the allegations she was making were untrue. It was clear from the start that Franco is a creep so I believed that the story from the ex was likely true. Now that numerous other women have accused him of misconduct I think there's no doubt that he's guilty.


Fine. Personally, I think it's a bit of a tortuous path to get caught up on, especially once you add in the general false accusation tangent, but here we are, so that's that.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Banedon » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:13 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:Jesus, Katie Roiphe? THERE'S an unpleasant blast from the past. The NYT is imploding.


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Re: #MeToo

Postby javy knows my name » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:15 pm

Head on over to Ganz's twitter for some more feel-goods
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neely wrote:but in reality
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Bobson Dugnutt » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:45 pm

man, that was such a refreshing response compared to the typical denials or the "i didn't know that my actions were wrong/unwanted" BS, and I am so glad that it's provided Ganz a sense of relief. i'm really glad he kept hitting on the importance of actively thinking about your words and actions and the effect they have on people. i'm always baffled by the people that adopt the "well you're just looking for racism/sexism/harassment/discrimination/whatever" as if this is a bad thing. well, yes, i do think it's important to devote a certain level of consideration to the impact our actions have on others, because our behavior is so ingrained, and our interactions are so nuanced, that it would behoove everyone to "look for" ways in which how we behave and speak might make others uncomfortable and modify accordingly. it's literally the least we can do.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:47 pm

Bobson Dugnutt wrote:man, that was such a refreshing response compared to the typical denials or the "i didn't know that my actions were wrong/unwanted" BS, and I am so glad that it's provided Ganz a sense of relief. i'm really glad he kept hitting on the importance of actively thinking about your words and actions and the effect they have on people. i'm always baffled by the people that adopt the "well you're just looking for racism/sexism/harassment/discrimination/whatever" as if this is a bad thing. well, yes, i do think it's important to devote a certain level of consideration to the impact our actions have on others, because our behavior is so ingrained, and our interactions are so nuanced, that it would behoove everyone to "look for" ways in which how we behave and speak might make others uncomfortable and modify accordingly. it's literally the least we can do.


Crazy how he managed to bring up stuff like his role as the creator and head writer and substance abuse issues, but didn't use any of those as an excuse or as a way to prop himself up, like we've seen so many people do instead of just admitting they were wrong and explaining why they were wrong.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby javy knows my name » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:55 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Bobson Dugnutt wrote:man, that was such a refreshing response compared to the typical denials or the "i didn't know that my actions were wrong/unwanted" BS, and I am so glad that it's provided Ganz a sense of relief. i'm really glad he kept hitting on the importance of actively thinking about your words and actions and the effect they have on people. i'm always baffled by the people that adopt the "well you're just looking for racism/sexism/harassment/discrimination/whatever" as if this is a bad thing. well, yes, i do think it's important to devote a certain level of consideration to the impact our actions have on others, because our behavior is so ingrained, and our interactions are so nuanced, that it would behoove everyone to "look for" ways in which how we behave and speak might make others uncomfortable and modify accordingly. it's literally the least we can do.


Crazy how he managed to bring up stuff like his role as the creator and head writer and substance abuse issues, but didn't use any of those as an excuse or as a way to prop himself up, like we've seen so many people do instead of just admitting they were wrong and explaining why they were wrong.


On the contrary, he brought those things up with the understanding that those all made things harder on her, not him! This is big.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:07 pm

Internalized misogyny/racism/homophobia is so horsefeathering tough to root out. I've had to come to grips w/ the fact that all those things, and more, were ingrained in me while growing up; through my family, friends, church, etc. My post-high school life has been replete with me doing my best to acknowledge this & actively try to make myself the person I want to be. I'm not even close to there yet.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:10 pm

Yeah, it's a really thoughtful and reflective way for someone to both examine why they wrong and admit to that, but also to serve as a lesson for other people to be able to take a look at their own behavior and maybe realize what they were missing or ignoring for too long. It's not faulty to lump this stuff in in a way with the the worst accusations since all of the more heinous horsefeathers starts along these lines. We're all guilty of doing or having done this sort of thing; it's easy to want to sum it up, like, "hey, don't be a horsefeathers head," or, "just treat other people normally/decently," but that does take some real effort for any of us.
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