#MeToo

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Re: #MeToo

Postby CubinNY » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:38 am

I think it’s a simple reason. The woman is trying to be nice and hope the guy takes a hint. I think we’ve all been in this situation before. A good guy takes the cues for what they are and backs off.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Banedon » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:43 pm

Two different quotes from women telling us that fear of death/violence is present, and still there's a refusal to believe.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby CubinNY » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:05 pm

Banedon wrote:Two different quotes from women telling us that fear of death/violence is present, and still there's a refusal to believe.

If I’m afraid of violence for telling someone no the method of saying no is irrelevant.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby jersey cubs fan » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:11 pm

Banedon wrote:Two different quotes from women telling us that fear of death/violence is present, and still there's a refusal to believe.


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Re: #MeToo

Postby TruffleShuffle » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:32 pm

wrong thread
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Banedon » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:13 pm

CubinNY wrote:
Banedon wrote:Two different quotes from women telling us that fear of death/violence is present, and still there's a refusal to believe.

If I’m afraid of violence for telling someone no the method of saying no is irrelevant.


Well that's dumb. You've never tried to tell someone "no" to something gently, in the hopes that they don't feel as rejected or hurt?
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Re: #MeToo

Postby CubinNY » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:15 pm

Banedon wrote:
CubinNY wrote:
Banedon wrote:Two different quotes from women telling us that fear of death/violence is present, and still there's a refusal to believe.

If I’m afraid of violence for telling someone no the method of saying no is irrelevant.


Well that's dumb. You've never tried to tell someone "no" to something gently, in the hopes that they don't feel as rejected or hurt?

That was what I just posted above your post. I thought you were responding to me.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby TBS Playoffs Insider » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:18 pm

I guess it shouldn't be crazy to realize that Aziz likes to sniff his own farts and try to act like a sexual tyranosaurus when he gets someone home with him.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:18 pm

I honestly am not sure how to reconcile my thoughts on this Anziz one...

The me too movement pre Weinstein definitely seemed to focus on these types of stories and experiences (and worse, obviously) as a way to call attention to behavior from men towards women, and a way for women to share these experiences amongst each other, in a way, coping. The worst part of reading that article is that it's not too hard to imagine that type of experience happening all the time in "everyday" sexual interactions, and it is super creepy and uncomfortable.

Weinstein moment happened and there has been a big shift towards specifically calling out men who used official positions of power over women/men (or in especially awful cases, children), and to effectively take them down.

So now the latter basically becomes combined with the former, where its not just taking down men who used positions of power (often in criminal acts), but also taking down men in these kind of "everyday" sexual ecounters that maybe aren't non-consensual, but still tramatic for a woman? One of the big takeaways in this movement for many has been to listen to women, but in a situation where even the victim recalls questioning whether non verbal cues were simply missed or outright ignored, it feels like honestly a weird grey area where maybe there is a guys viewpoint to this story where it falls on the side of bad sexual encounter rather than forcible sexual acts. Now if it was just a anonymous me too story, we should just listen, but if it's going to shift to these types of stories where the focus is taking down a specific man, does it necesitate hearing that man's side too? Not to say even the former isn't tramatic for a woman, but I'm more just questioning if the takedown is what's best served. Is Anziz just one of the sacrificial faces needed to be put on the movement so that men everywhere better understand what women often experience? If it that's the case, so be it, I'm not trying to pine for the loss of our beloved Anziz, so to speak. But part of me feels that it risks becoming a takedown movement of just big names rather than what started as a movement where women who experienced harm in everyday scenarios were listened to and supported, instead of a movement that plays solely on our culturao media/celebrity obsession.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby cl smooth » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:39 pm

if you feel, as a male, the need to repeatedly grab a female's hand and place it on your genitals after she removes her hand from your genitals, you have a total lack of self-awareness. he broke her down, plain and simple. it's the "canwehaveapooldad?! canwehaveapooldad?!" in sexual assault form.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:44 pm

cl smooth wrote:if you feel, as a male, the need to repeatedly grab a female's hand and place it on your genitals after she removes her hand from your genitals, you have a total lack of self-awareness. he broke her down, plain and simple. it's the "canwehaveapooldad?! canwehaveapooldad?!" in sexual assault form.

I agree with that... the specifics of Grace's experience aren't what I have a hard time reconciling my thoughts with. Reading that article was super uncomfortable and gross.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:52 pm

TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:I guess it shouldn't be crazy to realize that Aziz likes to sniff his own farts and try to act like a sexual tyranosaurus when he gets someone home with him.



It's like, "dude, the whole RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANDY! thing was a joke; you shouldn't be trying to BE Randy."
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Re: #MeToo

Postby jersey cubs fan » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:01 pm

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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:09 pm

Yeeeeeesh. Bad, bad take in The Atlantic:

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainme ... ri/550541/

Was Grace frozen, terrified, stuck? No. She tells us that she wanted something from Ansari and she was trying to figure out how to get it. She wanted affection, kindness, attention. Perhaps she hoped to maybe even become the famous man’s girlfriend. He wasn’t interested. What she felt afterward—rejected yet another time, by yet another man—was regret. And what she and the writer who told her story created was 3,000 words of revenge porn. The clinical detail in which the story is told is intended not to validate her account as much as it is to hurt and humiliate Ansari. Together, the two women may have destroyed Ansari’s career, which is now the punishment for every kind of male sexual misconduct, from the grotesque to the disappointing.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby TBS Playoffs Insider » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:13 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:Yeeeeeesh. Bad, bad take in The Atlantic:

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainme ... ri/550541/

Was Grace frozen, terrified, stuck? No. She tells us that she wanted something from Ansari and she was trying to figure out how to get it. She wanted affection, kindness, attention. Perhaps she hoped to maybe even become the famous man’s girlfriend. He wasn’t interested. What she felt afterward—rejected yet another time, by yet another man—was regret. And what she and the writer who told her story created was 3,000 words of revenge porn. The clinical detail in which the story is told is intended not to validate her account as much as it is to hurt and humiliate Ansari. Together, the two women may have destroyed Ansari’s career, which is now the punishment for every kind of male sexual misconduct, from the grotesque to the disappointing.


I keep finding at least a kernel of truth in every one of these essays, no matter what the take is.

But the bottom line is she gave a clear indication for him to stop - the whole verbal non-verbal thing is moot imo when you're physically removing your hand from the guy's lap - and he didn't stop.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:26 pm

I'm simply having a hard time countenancing men ridiculing women's statements of living in fear of being assaulted by men.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby SouthSideRyan » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:37 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:I guess it shouldn't be crazy to realize that Aziz likes to sniff his own farts and try to act like a sexual tyranosaurus when he gets someone home with him.



It's like, "dude, the whole RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANDY! thing was a joke; you shouldn't be trying to BE Randy."


That was his entire encore when I saw his stand-up ~6 years ago. Wanted to jump out a window.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:39 pm

Goddamnn, he was still doing that, what, 2 years after Funny People?
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Re: #MeToo

Postby 17 Seconds » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:49 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:Yeeeeeesh. Bad, bad take in The Atlantic:

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainme ... ri/550541/

Was Grace frozen, terrified, stuck? No. She tells us that she wanted something from Ansari and she was trying to figure out how to get it. She wanted affection, kindness, attention. Perhaps she hoped to maybe even become the famous man’s girlfriend. He wasn’t interested. What she felt afterward—rejected yet another time, by yet another man—was regret. And what she and the writer who told her story created was 3,000 words of revenge porn. The clinical detail in which the story is told is intended not to validate her account as much as it is to hurt and humiliate Ansari. Together, the two women may have destroyed Ansari’s career, which is now the punishment for every kind of male sexual misconduct, from the grotesque to the disappointing.


kristen bell apparently endorsed this

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Re: #MeToo

Postby cl smooth » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:50 pm

more than a handful of females i know are on the fence with this accusation. they get that aziz didn't care to take a hint but wonder why the girl didn't just get up and leave after a few minutes.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby TBS Playoffs Insider » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:56 pm

cl smooth wrote:more than a handful of females i know are on the fence with this accusation. they get that aziz didn't care to take a hint but wonder why the girl didn't just get up and leave after a few minutes.


Every woman I've heard who has said this has pointed to Aziz's celebrity to make their point, which I get to the extent that it would matter in this scenario anyway.

Basically, if she was out with a random guy she had met, and he behaved this way, she probably would have left. But she didn't in this case, because, they argue, she was trying to convince herself it was fine, that if she bolted out the door her chance with Aziz would be gone.

Which makes sense to me, but still, the way he acted was entirely inappropriate so ... only half credit awarded?
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:01 pm

Because that's a common reaction to this kind of thing; it's why there's often little to no evidence of a struggle in more aggravated cases of sexual assault because people basically fall into a sense of, "OK, if I just let this happen then it'll be over sooner." Just getting up and trying to leave potentially makes the other person angry, and that's one of the biggest fears in this situation. Again, when it's reached the point of, "OK, this other person clearly has no problem crossing the line and then some physically," then you start worrying about the other ways they'd be willing to cross the line physically. You've basically made someone feel as vulnerable and as exposed as they can feel. Not everyone is going to react like that, but it's a really, really common response.

It really feels like most of the resistance to this is along the lines of, "horsefeathers, I really like Aziz." *I* really like his work, but dude needs to know better and be better, period.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby jersey cubs fan » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:57 pm

I mean I had a convo with 2 female cousins (couple years ago) that both thought Cosby was wrongfully accused.

Having ladyparts doesn't make you immune to stupid takes in this genre.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby javy knows my name » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:01 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:I mean I had a convo with 2 female cousins (couple years ago) that both thought Cosby was wrongfully accused.

Having ladyparts doesn't make you immune to stupid takes in this genre.


I don't give a good [expletive] about the (self-admittedly!) out of touch woman who wrote the stupid article, I'm more disturbed that a hugely outspoken supporter of #metoo tweeted it out in apparent agreement
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Re: #MeToo

Postby mul21 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:57 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:Yeeeeeesh. Bad, bad take in The Atlantic:

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainme ... ri/550541/

Was Grace frozen, terrified, stuck? No. She tells us that she wanted something from Ansari and she was trying to figure out how to get it. She wanted affection, kindness, attention. Perhaps she hoped to maybe even become the famous man’s girlfriend. He wasn’t interested. What she felt afterward—rejected yet another time, by yet another man—was regret. And what she and the writer who told her story created was 3,000 words of revenge porn. The clinical detail in which the story is told is intended not to validate her account as much as it is to hurt and humiliate Ansari. Together, the two women may have destroyed Ansari’s career, which is now the punishment for every kind of male sexual misconduct, from the grotesque to the disappointing.


I first saw this on a retweet from Ken Tremendous and after reading it I was kind of in a WTF mode because he's also been at the forefront of publicizing the me too stuff. And then some of the replies to his tweet gave me the impression that it was satire. I'm thoroughly confused by the whole thing.
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