#MeToo

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Re: #MeToo

Postby squally1313 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:36 pm

Derwood wrote:
squally1313 wrote:
Derwood wrote:I would be interested to hear a detailed account from Ansari’s side, just to compare.

I am on a Title IX hearing board and I’m constantly fascinated by how different the two sides of every story are. Beyond basic misunderstanding/misinterpreting of the sexual encounters, there are often huge rifts between the most basic of details about who else was around, what time things happened, what happened the next day/week, etc.


I think he realizes that there's very little upside in him putting out some sort of 'well, actually, here's what really happened' statement. Put out a good apology, lay low for a while, and then move on. This isn't going to ruin his career. Honestly, it's probably not right, but I can't really think of him as a monster or a predator. I just picture him making his stupid sad puppy face and saying 'please?!?' like 30 times in a row.


Oh, I completely agree that he SHOULDN’T. I’m just curious what he remembers differently.


In a perfect world, sure. Actually, in a perfect world we'd actually know what happened. We don't, and we aren't ever going to. Given that it's highly unlikely that Aziz would come out and make himself look worse (given his brief statement, there's basically zero chance that's what it would sound like), all it would do is muddle the issue and turn it into a he said/she said, with generally the worst people on the internet picking sides.

In a courtroom, his story is important. But he's not getting convicted of a crime, and his life will continue to be far better than 99% of the American population. As it stands now, this could be a really important example of the deeply rooted flaws in our sexual culture (see the Vox article). Fair or not, in the grand scheme of things I'm willing to exile Aziz to some beachfront villa for a few months in order to get the bigger point across.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:43 pm

Ideally he did what he said in his statement and after she let him know he looked back on what happened and realized where he went too far.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:18 pm

I think this might be more along the lines of what an actual middle ground take on this looks like:

https://jezebel.com/babe-what-are-you-doing-1822114753

Basically Babe horsefeathers this up in how they reported it. By obsessing over the minute details like they did, they effectively made it sound too much like a gossip piece. That opens the door for all of the takes about how it's a "hit piece" by someone mad over a bad a date, or "revenge porn." It's along the lines of how everyone focuses on Trump using the specific word "horsefeathers house" while largely glossing over the larger context of what he was saying with his whole statement.

Like, the conversation should be about something like how it's expected that women have to set all of the boundaries when it comes to sex with all of the obviousness of a neon-powered signal flare, as if guys can't read a room or ask if the other person wants to do something and can just proceed if they don't have someone going, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO."
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Banedon » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:19 pm

ROFL it's about horsefeathering time...

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Re: #MeToo

Postby squally1313 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:21 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:I think this might be more along the lines of what an actual middle ground take on this looks like:

https://jezebel.com/babe-what-are-you-doing-1822114753

Basically Babe horsefeathers this up in how they reported it. By obsessing over the minute details like they did, they effectively made it sound too much like a gossip piece. That opens the door for all of the takes about how it's a "hit piece" by someone mad over a bad a date, or "revenge porn." It's along the lines of how everyone focuses on Trump using the specific word "horsefeathers house" while largely glossing over the larger context of what he was saying with his whole statement.

Like, the conversation should be about something like how it's expected that women have to set all of the boundaries when it comes to sex with all of the obviousness of a neon-powered signal flare, as if guys can't read a room or ask if the other person wants to do something and can just proceed if they don't have someone going, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO."


The comments are...not what I was expecting from that site.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:27 pm

Man, unless it's Deadspin I am not even bothering to check out the comments on a Gawker/Univision site these days.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby squally1313 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:34 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:Man, unless it's Deadspin I am not even bothering to check out the comments on a Gawker/Univision site these days.

The top comment right now, in terms of stars received. This coming from what is generally the most pro-feminist part of the site.

This was a bad date. She had a horrible date with a clueless guy who thought he was being sexy and hot. She was made to feel uncomfortable, and it wasn’t right.

But she wasn’t assaulted. She wasn’t threatened. She wasn’t restrained. He wasn’t her boss and was telling her she had to do certain things in order to keep her job, or get a job, or get paid, etc.

The conversation might need to less about labeling him a predator or a sexual harasser, and more about how we, as women, need to stop trying to be so concerned with people’s feelings and just leave a situation that makes us uncomfortable. The conversation might need to be about how women have always tried this “Non-verbal cue” horsefeathers as a means to be polite and it’s [expletive]. If you are uncomfortable, or someone isn’t hearing you, leave. We have to be able to look at situations and figure out what went haywire and when, and maybe there might be a point where we could have done something to help ourselves. Maybe not, but it’s worth at least talking about. I mean horsefeathers, are we going to take it to such a degree that we giving the impression to younger generations that it’s totally fine to put up with being pushed to do things or asked repeatedly to do things and just sit there uncomfortably and take it because hey, it’s the guy’s fault for pushing it so after it’s all said and done, it’s all on him 100%? Or do we tell them to stop trying to be nice and passive and just get the hell up and leave?

If she had felt threatened, or frightened in any way, then by all means this is a totally different conversation. But, going by her story, that isn’t what happened here.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Cubswin11 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:37 pm

I’m with Sofa on this. While the story doesn’t have the Wesinstein type awfulness it seems people are going out of their way to dismiss this or spin it because it’s “one of the good ones” and someone they like and if it was someone who wasn’t held in the same sentiment and more loathed the same defense/reasoning wouldn’t be happening
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:44 pm

squally1313 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:Man, unless it's Deadspin I am not even bothering to check out the comments on a Gawker/Univision site these days.

The top comment right now, in terms of stars received. This coming from what is generally the most pro-feminist part of the site.

This was a bad date. She had a horrible date with a clueless guy who thought he was being sexy and hot. She was made to feel uncomfortable, and it wasn’t right.

But she wasn’t assaulted. She wasn’t threatened. She wasn’t restrained. He wasn’t her boss and was telling her she had to do certain things in order to keep her job, or get a job, or get paid, etc.

The conversation might need to less about labeling him a predator or a sexual harasser, and more about how we, as women, need to stop trying to be so concerned with people’s feelings and just leave a situation that makes us uncomfortable. The conversation might need to be about how women have always tried this “Non-verbal cue” horsefeathers as a means to be polite and it’s [expletive]. If you are uncomfortable, or someone isn’t hearing you, leave. We have to be able to look at situations and figure out what went haywire and when, and maybe there might be a point where we could have done something to help ourselves. Maybe not, but it’s worth at least talking about. I mean horsefeathers, are we going to take it to such a degree that we giving the impression to younger generations that it’s totally fine to put up with being pushed to do things or asked repeatedly to do things and just sit there uncomfortably and take it because hey, it’s the guy’s fault for pushing it so after it’s all said and done, it’s all on him 100%? Or do we tell them to stop trying to be nice and passive and just get the hell up and leave?

If she had felt threatened, or frightened in any way, then by all means this is a totally different conversation. But, going by her story, that isn’t what happened here.


Yeesh. Again with the variation that she was somehow being all cryptic and coy and secretive about what she didn't want him to do. At some point these people need to realize that Aziz is also apparently a fully functional, capable adult with a working brain who should have (and almost certainly did) heard what she was saying and how she was pushing him away and realized, "hm, maybe the ol' chestnut about how you just have to be persistent ISN'T the best rule of thumb here (if he wasn't already trying to shove that thumb in her mouth)..."
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Re: #MeToo

Postby squally1313 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:46 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:I’m with Sofa on this. While the story doesn’t have the Wesinstein type awfulness it seems people are going out of their way to dismiss this or spin it because it’s “one of the good ones” and someone they like and if it was someone who wasn’t held in the same sentiment and more loathed the same defense/reasoning wouldn’t be happening

Disagree. People are going out of their way to dismiss/spin this because the general facts of the night, creepy sexual idiosyncrasies aside, pretty much line up with how pop culture views, and teaches, sexual interaction. He took her on a date, she agreed to come up to his place, they started going down the road to intercourse, and she tried, politely, to stop the proceedings while he continued to insist they push further. I'd guess a majority of the people on this site know situations in their personal lives, either themselves or someone they care about, where the facts have been very similar. It's basically the plot line to most teenage comedies we grew up with, from American Pie to Superbad. It's a strong subliminal, if not explicit message of the entire alcohol industry. It's, for lack of a better word, 'normal'. And some people don't like that. But it's horsefeathers behavior that may not necessitate jail time, but deserves a real conversation and re-calibration going forward. It has very little to do with Tom Haverford.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:01 pm

Yeah, I will cop to being salty as hell taking shots at people saying they just wanted to defend Aziz because they like him; I think that's part of it, but I agree that I think the thing that sticks with so many people is that this is a situation they've been in plenty of times or could easily see themselves in, and they either think they would do a better job of getting out of it or a better job of not making the mistakes Aziz did.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Ding Dong Johnson » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:38 am

jersey cubs fan wrote:

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Re: #MeToo

Postby TruffleShuffle » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:42 am

i assumed ann would be conflicted because he's brown and muslim, not because she doesn't find him funny.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby TruffleShuffle » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:02 am

Sammy Sofa wrote:The only "nuance" you guys are shooting for here is, "how can we let Aziz off the hook so we can watch the next season of Master of None without being distracted?" If this was about some hack like Dane Cook or Jeff Foxworthy I'd doubt we be seeing so many measured treatises about how we need to carefully consider their reputations.

i haven't actually watched anything of his in quite a while since i don't watch much TV any more, and i'm pretty sure that if it were some lousy plugger of a comedian i'd feel the same way. that vox article is good and gets to ways in which men should behave better. i've stated multiple times that his behavior was at the very least problematic and he should have put the brakes on well before he did. that being said, i do believe that women can and should withdraw from these situations. men should be better, for sure, but part of leveling the playing field is women being clear and open about what they're comfortable with, and walking away when they're uncomfortable. as derwood mentioned above, the accounts of a sexual situation that occurred, especially when alcohol was involved, can vary wildly from one party to the other without either person feeling like they're being dishonest, and two of the ways to mitigate that issue are for men to stop trying to coax a woman into sexual activity when she's lukewarm about it, and both parties being more clear and vocal about what they're thinking and feeling.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:27 am

Sammy Sofa wrote:I think this might be more along the lines of what an actual middle ground take on this looks like:

https://jezebel.com/babe-what-are-you-doing-1822114753

Basically Babe horsefeathers this up in how they reported it. By obsessing over the minute details like they did, they effectively made it sound too much like a gossip piece. That opens the door for all of the takes about how it's a "hit piece" by someone mad over a bad a date, or "revenge porn." It's along the lines of how everyone focuses on Trump using the specific word "horsefeathers house" while largely glossing over the larger context of what he was saying with his whole statement.

Like, the conversation should be about something like how it's expected that women have to set all of the boundaries when it comes to sex with all of the obviousness of a neon-powered signal flare, as if guys can't read a room or ask if the other person wants to do something and can just proceed if they don't have someone going, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO."

I'm really like that article as a summary of how I feel about this story.

I am a little confused about your second paragraph though... at least as it relates to this story. A lot of this story, does involve nuance and not the NOOOOO type response. A lot of it is requires us to ask questions from both sides of a sexual encounter. What are the no signals from partners? What are the yes signsls? How can these be confusing and contradictory? Certainly as we read Grace's recount of the story it leans towards a NOOOO, tupe signal, but... without trying to discredit Grace (I believe her experience and basically am willing to take the spoken word as canon - although even that can have two sides).... this seems like a point where me too needs to expand to a more shared conversation than what it has been... If that's what it's gonna be.

Granted if the claims were of rape I'd take a different stance... But it isn't. So I'm still kinda :dontknow: on how I should feel on this.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:02 pm

Much better take this time, Atlantic.

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainme ... urce=atlfb
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Old Style » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:10 pm

Oh, Alec.

Alec Baldwin has defended Woody Allen on Twitter and called other actors “unfair and sad” for voicing their regrets over working with him.


Alec Baldwin criticizes stars denouncing Woody Allen: 'Unfair and sad'
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Re: #MeToo

Postby SouthSideRyan » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:32 pm

Is it just Jack Donaghy that is keeping Baldwin as some sort of beloved personality despite his awful most everything.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Banedon » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:39 pm

SouthSideRyan wrote:Is it just Jack Donaghy that is keeping Baldwin as some sort of beloved personality despite his awful most everything.


Being Trump on SNL...he's fun as host of the Match Game...

He's an entertaining person but he's definitely problematic personally.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby squally1313 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:25 pm

Banedon wrote:
SouthSideRyan wrote:Is it just Jack Donaghy that is keeping Baldwin as some sort of beloved personality despite his awful most everything.


Being Trump on SNL...he's fun as host of the Match Game...

He's an entertaining person but he's definitely problematic personally.


Just let Rosie play Trump.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby The Logan » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:11 pm

So arguably the most outspoken feminist in my school this year, and I mean she's the type of feminist MRA people would troll on twitter if they could (she objected to having to watch Animal House and MASH because of the objectification of women despite their cultural significance in comedy cinema) came out in support of the Aziz thing being a terrible representation of the #MeToo movement today on Facebook and I was like "Whaaaaa?"
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:38 pm

The funny thing is that Aziz got a decent amount of shade from serious feminism types when he first rolled out his mega woke ally routines.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:22 pm

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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:36 pm

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Re: #MeToo

Postby CubinNY » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:35 pm

CyHawk_Cub wrote:

I hope she tells us how she really feels at some later date.
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