The History Thread

User avatar
OleMissCub
Hall of Fame
Posts: 36297
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:32 am
x 840
x 1092

The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:56 pm

Letter that Hugh Glass sent to the parents of one of the members of his group that was killed during the Arikara attack. Just a few days later he was attacked by the bear.

Dr Sir: My painfull duty it is to tell you of the deth of yr son wh befell at the hands of the Indians 2d June in the early morning. He died a little while after he was shot and asked me to inform you of his sad fate.

We brought him to the ship when he soon died. Mr. Smith a young man of our company made a powerful prayr wh moved us all greatly and I am persuaded John died in peace. His body we buried with others near this camp and marked the grave with a log. His things we will send to you. The savages are greatly treacherous.

We traded with them as friends but after a great storm of rain and thunder they came at us before light and many were hurt. I myself was shot in the leg. Master Ashley is bound to stay in these parts till the traitors are rightly punished. Yr Obt Svt Hugh Glass


Image
0 x
Image

biittner77
Superstar
Posts: 10284
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:10 am
Location: Maryland's Eastern Shore
x 9
x 157

Re: The History Thread

Postby biittner77 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:30 pm

I wish I could be alive 200 years from now when kids in school are trying to read text messages and tweets to gain insight into our 21st century lives.

"They keep writing OMG, they must have been very religious!"
0 x
snoodmonger wrote:Schwarber dong was as swaggy a dong as you're gonna see, fellas. If he'd dropped the bat cleanly, it would've jumped up and flipped itself.

User avatar
seanimal
stats enthousiast
Posts: 9082
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:56 am
Location: the final frontier
x 235
x 195

Re: The History Thread

Postby seanimal » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:38 am

well someone should tell those future people about urban dictionary
0 x

User avatar
Derwood
Stall Monitor
Posts: 65061
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:44 pm
Location: 375 Miles East of Wrigley
x 491
x 1163

Re: The History Thread

Postby Derwood » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:09 am

0 x

User avatar
OleMissCub
Hall of Fame
Posts: 36297
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:32 am
x 840
x 1092

Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:53 pm

Freaking hysterical. Bravo to this person.

4 x
Image

User avatar
OleMissCub
Hall of Fame
Posts: 36297
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:32 am
x 840
x 1092

Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:01 pm

Monument in Norway honoring the Battle of Hafrsfjord. Pretty sick.

Image

Image

Image
0 x
Image

User avatar
Banedon
Curse You!
Posts: 63913
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:36 pm
Location: Kidding Myself
x 2998
x 3160

Re: The History Thread

Postby Banedon » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:02 pm

Saw that on Reddit earlier. Very cool.
0 x
Image

User avatar
OleMissCub
Hall of Fame
Posts: 36297
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:32 am
x 840
x 1092

Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:05 pm

Just finished a book called "Exodus from the Alamo". It basically attempts to break down the "last stand" mythology that cropped up almost immediately after the battle. Basically, Western Civilization's love affair with a romantic last stand goes back to Thermopyale and how white people can only comprehend a staggering and total defeat against a supposed racially inferior force through that lens i.e. a noble self-sacrifice while you die at your post, wherein the truth is that these battles were actually chaotic messes with some groups of individuals standing their ground, some groups clumsily mounting a retreating defense, and the majority trying to flee as best they can. The mythology around Little Big Horn is another example of this.

Basically, the only adult Anglo survivor of the Alamo was Susanna Dickinson, whose husband was in charge of artillery. Her account isn't much use at all because she spent the final battle hunkered with her infant daughter inside the basement of the church. The only other account from an adult who survived was Col. Travis' slave Joe, but he's only helpful for the very beginning of the final battle since Travis was one of the first defenders killed. He was immediately shot through the head as soon as he scaled a wall, only getting one shot off before being killed. Travis had told Joe that if they were overrun that he needed to go hide inside his room and to know the phrase "I'm a slave, don't shoot" in Spanish, which almost certainly saved his life given the chaos. So the point is that because there was no first person account of the details of the final battle, Americans just assumed that if the defenders were all wiped out by a bunch of Mexicans, then by god you know they died at their posts to a man taking hordes of Mexicans with them.

So the only accounts of the actual battle comes from the Mexicans; their diaries, memoirs, and officers reports. They are universally in agreement about how it actually went down. Their artillery had kept up a nighttime barrage for the previous week, hoping to deprive the defenders of sleep. On the night before the attack, there was no barrage, so the defenders basically were all asleep. The Mexicans somehow managed to sneak up and get right up next to the walls in the pre-dawn darkness before launching their attack. Roused from their sleep, in the pitch dark, very few defenders even had the chance to get up on the walls and defend them and only 2 or 3 of their 18 cannons were even able to get a shot off. With the Mexicans already over the walls within minutes, the vast majority of defenders, estimates say roughly 100-120 of the total 183 defenders, exited the Alamo and tried to flee through a gap in the Mexican ranks toward the southeast. Santa Anna was no idiot and because his main assaults were coming from the north and west, he had arranged that his cavalry hang back a bit in the southeast, knowing that the Texians would be squeezed out that way. The Mexican sources are almost universally in agreement that this cavalry contingent swooped in and killed the majority of the Texians outside the walls. The entire battle lasted somewhere around 20 minutes.

The Mexicans sources are also in agreement that five or six Texians, Davy Crockett among them, were captured and executed at Santa Anna's orders, though one Mexican general did plead with Santa Anna to spare Crockett, knowing of his importance.

Anyways, it was a pretty interesting read.

I also came across an article recently that said San Antonio was funding a major overhaul of the Alamo site, costing like 65 million, hoping to buy up and bulldoze some of the local eyesore gift shops and restaurants in hopes of partially building a facsimile Alamo. If any of you have ever been there, it's one of the more underwhelming historical sites in the country. It's basically just the front of the actual church itself and that's it. So it'd be pretty cool if they actually spruced it up a bit.
2 x
Image

User avatar
WrigleyField 22
Superstar
Posts: 11137
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: hnderstabxcwhsg
x 1192
x 375

Re: The History Thread

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:18 pm

Yea I was definitely shocked when I saw the Alamo. "That's it?"

Definitely interesting, and I guess not all too surprising. Even if it was a white enemy, who wants to hear a story about being steamrolled?
0 x
Image

biittner77
Superstar
Posts: 10284
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:10 am
Location: Maryland's Eastern Shore
x 9
x 157

Re: The History Thread

Postby biittner77 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:25 pm

When all of the first hand accounts come from one side and they all agree, isn't that an indication that they should be treated with at least some skepticism? I'm not saying that the "died at their post" narrative is correct but that the truth is maybe somewhere between each side's version of events.
0 x
snoodmonger wrote:Schwarber dong was as swaggy a dong as you're gonna see, fellas. If he'd dropped the bat cleanly, it would've jumped up and flipped itself.

User avatar
OleMissCub
Hall of Fame
Posts: 36297
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:32 am
x 840
x 1092

Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:50 pm

biittner77 wrote:When all of the first hand accounts come from one side and they all agree, isn't that an indication that they should be treated with at least some skepticism? I'm not saying that the "died at their post" narrative is correct but that the truth is maybe somewhere between each side's version of events.


As the book points out, the diversity of the various writers is a good indication that they weren't fabricating anything. You've got an After Action Report written by a Mexican general just 2 days after the event. You also have a captured Mexican officer relating the events to an American journalist several months later (so he wouldn't have anything to gain by pumping up how easy the victory was). You've got a memoir from another Mexican officer many years after the war who was a political opponent of Santa Anna. There are various others as well from private soldiers. You couple that diversity with the fact that it did only last roughly 20 minutes (Travis' slave and Mrs. Dickenson confirm this) and with the fact that if a solid defense were mounted, the Mexicans would have lost a great deal more men than they did. Even though they only had 183 men, if the battle had taken place as John Wayne's version shows, the Mexicans would have lost a ton of men. The Alamo was very defensible, even with such a small garrison.

Other evidence is where the funeral pyre was located. It was located southeast of the Alamo which is where the breakouts occurred. It makes sense that they would have began piling the bodies where the majority of them were already laying around.
0 x
Image

User avatar
OleMissCub
Hall of Fame
Posts: 36297
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:32 am
x 840
x 1092

Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:33 pm

Worf drops the mic about Crockett and the Alamo.

1 x
Image

User avatar
CoolHandLuke
All-Star
Posts: 4074
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:48 pm
Location: Niles
x 16
x 53

Re: The History Thread

Postby CoolHandLuke » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:49 am

Even though I visited in 2010, I don't actually remember the Alamo.
0 x

User avatar
OleMissCub
Hall of Fame
Posts: 36297
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:32 am
x 840
x 1092

Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:13 pm

CoolHandLuke wrote:Even though I visited in 2010, I don't actually remember the Alamo.


wonk wonk
0 x
Image

biittner77
Superstar
Posts: 10284
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:10 am
Location: Maryland's Eastern Shore
x 9
x 157

Re: The History Thread

Postby biittner77 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:17 pm

CoolHandLuke wrote:Even though I visited in 2010, I don't actually remember the Alamo.


Did Pearl Harbor leave a more lasting impression?
0 x
snoodmonger wrote:Schwarber dong was as swaggy a dong as you're gonna see, fellas. If he'd dropped the bat cleanly, it would've jumped up and flipped itself.

User avatar
OleMissCub
Hall of Fame
Posts: 36297
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:32 am
x 840
x 1092

Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:18 pm

biittner77 wrote:
CoolHandLuke wrote:Even though I visited in 2010, I don't actually remember the Alamo.


Did Pearl Harbor leave a more lasting impression?


It made a lot more money at the box office, that's for sure, but was a worse movie.
0 x
Image

biittner77
Superstar
Posts: 10284
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:10 am
Location: Maryland's Eastern Shore
x 9
x 157

Re: The History Thread

Postby biittner77 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:28 pm

OleMissCub wrote:
biittner77 wrote:
CoolHandLuke wrote:Even though I visited in 2010, I don't actually remember the Alamo.


Did Pearl Harbor leave a more lasting impression?


It made a lot more money at the box office, that's for sure, but was a worse movie.


http://www.theonion.com/.../josh-hartne ... arbor-fo...
0 x
snoodmonger wrote:Schwarber dong was as swaggy a dong as you're gonna see, fellas. If he'd dropped the bat cleanly, it would've jumped up and flipped itself.

User avatar
OleMissCub
Hall of Fame
Posts: 36297
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:32 am
x 840
x 1092

Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:47 pm

The 2004 Alamo was a complete flop. It wasn't that great, but I think the portrayal of "the holy trinity" by Thornton, Patrick Wilson, and Jason Patric was really solid. The actual attack on the Alamo wasn't totally accurate either, but at least they get points for it occurring on a chilly night in the pitch darkness unlike the Wayneamo, where some of the defenders are bare chested and the assault occurs in broad daylight. So unless they make another Alamo film, that's the best portrayal so far of how it went down.

In addition to the overall tone of the film being a bit sappy, I think the major flaw with the 2004 Alamo was that they needlessly included Sam Houston and the battle of San Jacinto. They apparently cut 45 minutes of character development and scenes they filmed taking place in the Alamo in exchange for including the Sam Houston stuff. It needed to be a self contained story about the defense of the Alamo. Poor Marc Blucas had every single one of his multiple scenes as James Bonham cut out and doesn't even speak a word in the final film. Bonham snuck in and out of the Alamo multiple times on horseback during the siege and relayed messages to the other Texian armies about the situation in the Alamo and even though he knew what was about to happen, he snuck back into the Alamo the night before the attack so he could be with his buddies when the time came. Pretty dramatic stuff that was all left on the cutting room floor so we could see Dennis Quaid's mediocre performance as Houston.

The original screenplay,when Ron Howard was attached to direct, was a much more gritty film and didn't portray the Texians in that positive of a light, portraying many of them as what they were: outcasts. Many of the Americans who ended up in Texas back then weren't the salt of the earth types and went there because they were running away from something in America. Travis himself only went to Texas because he was about to be arrested for a $900 debt he owed, abandoning his pregnant wife and young son. Crockett was out there because he was pissed that he lost reelection to Congress. When Howard was set to direct, Russell Crowe was originally signed on to play Houston, Viggo Mortensen as Bowie, and Ethan Hawke as Travis. Ron Howard has a pretty good success rate with films, so I'm pretty sure his version would have been better. Also, that was at the height of Russell Crowe's career, so I'm sure his attachment would have improved the box office a bit as well.
0 x
Image

biittner77
Superstar
Posts: 10284
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:10 am
Location: Maryland's Eastern Shore
x 9
x 157

Re: The History Thread

Postby biittner77 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:54 pm

At least it wasn't as bad as Texas Rising or wtf they called that History channel pos mini series
0 x
snoodmonger wrote:Schwarber dong was as swaggy a dong as you're gonna see, fellas. If he'd dropped the bat cleanly, it would've jumped up and flipped itself.

User avatar
OleMissCub
Hall of Fame
Posts: 36297
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:32 am
x 840
x 1092

Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:43 pm

biittner77 wrote:At least it wasn't as bad as Texas Rising or wtf they called that History channel pos mini series


That effing show. I lasted about an episode and a half. I know I get some flack on this board for being anal about inaccurate clothing and other anachronisms in historical movies, but holy weeping jesus, that show wasn't even close. I've never seen a historical production with a decent budget give less of a horsefeathers about being somewhat historically correct than that stupid series.

1830's clothing:

Image

NOT 1830's clothing. This is 1880's or some crap. It's like having a movie set in the 1940's where people are wearing Girbaud jeans and neon t-shirts. Awful.

Image

East Texas:

Image

Image

NOT East Texas

Image

Image
0 x
Image

User avatar
Sammy Sofa
Licks Butts
Posts: 70777
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:45 am
Location: Washington DC
x 6012
x 8009

Re: The History Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:53 pm

Is there any other blip in American history more overblown than the Alamo?
0 x

User avatar
OleMissCub
Hall of Fame
Posts: 36297
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:32 am
x 840
x 1092

Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:44 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:Is there any other blip in American history more overblown than the Alamo?


Gunfight at the OK Corral: a shootout between two groups of thugs that lasted 10 seconds and where only 3 people were killed.
0 x
Image

User avatar
Sammy Sofa
Licks Butts
Posts: 70777
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:45 am
Location: Washington DC
x 6012
x 8009

Re: The History Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:52 pm

Eh; you could say that about most Old West legends; most of those don't really transcend just being cool stories. If someone just made a movie about the Alamo, that would be one thing, but it has a level of reverence and iconography that is pretty bonkers. Nobody was uniting a state around the Earps or treating the OK Corral basically like it's a sacred site; at the end of the day it's still just a legendary gunfight. The Alamo is basically treated like a religious experience.
0 x

User avatar
OleMissCub
Hall of Fame
Posts: 36297
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:32 am
x 840
x 1092

Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:09 am

Sammy Sofa wrote:The Alamo is basically treated like a religious experience.


Mostly just to dumb Texans.

I don't think the fascination is all that strange for history dorks if you are able to avoid the reverence for it: You've got America's most famous person at that time and another pretty famous person commanding 186 non-soldiers against 4,000 professional soldiers and dying to a man*. So I think the interest is valid given the drama that comes with underdog last stands.

But yes, to your point about the Alamo being overblown or overhyped, ever since I first saw the trailer over 10 years ago, I've always remembered the hysterically absurd line at 1:23



*Most modern scholars seem to think that a 24 year old named Henry Warnell did escape the final battle, but died of his wounds a few weeks later.
0 x
Image

User avatar
Sammy Sofa
Licks Butts
Posts: 70777
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:45 am
Location: Washington DC
x 6012
x 8009

Re: The History Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:14 am

I AM a history dork, and find it a passing curiosity at best on par with something like Little Big Horn. Outside of some historical figures who were much interesting at earlier points in their life meeting their ends there...meh. To each their own; I couldn't fathom wanting to pore over the thing like it's some great turning point or moment in history or really all that unique.
0 x


Return to “Social”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: New York Cubs Fan and 3 guests