The History Thread

[OleMissCub]

i understand there's going to be some recency bias but i just don't see how trump is not the worst president ever. by no measure was he successful at anything; no significant legislative accomplishments, no lasting policy positions, two impeachments, a single term ending in violent shame. All of the "conservative wins", i.e. judges, are owned by McConnell. Not sure how getting ridden like a stolen mule by mitch could be considered an accomplishment in any way, shape, or form.

This is the correct position the more I think about it. As a history nerd I was trying not to fall into the trap of recency bias, but good grief, what an abject failure he was. Even if his 4 years had been totally uneventful, the shame and embarrassment he brought to the office through his complete lack of decorum is enough to put him near the bottom of the list. Then you add in the impeachments and Covid and the way he handled his election loss and he has to be dead last.

[Rob]

I look at things less as an absolute ranking and more tier-based. He may well end up the guy I think of as the bottom of the bottom tier, but as of yet, I don't think he deserves a tier unto himself.

That said, Trump's legacy is still being written. He may be gone from office, but that in no way closes the book on Trump the President.

Until the Trump years I still held Nixon as an average-ish President, with the caveat of the damage he did to the office. But seeing how people whose politically formative years were during the Nixon administration reacted to Trump made me reconsider my opinion of Nixon. He now is in a tier much lower to the bottom.

We have the next 50 years or so to see how Trump's legacy plays out.

[Rob]

Since my last post reads as terribly depressing, I would like to express my profound hope that Trump's legacy is in large part the Millennial generation being profoundly turned off to nonsensical conservative politics and their increasing political participation ushering in a new age of hope and prosperity for our country and our world.

In that case, Trump gets to claim he's at the top half of the bottom tier.

[CubinNY]

Since my last post reads as terribly depressing, I would like to express my profound hope that Trump's legacy is in large part the Millennial generation being profoundly turned off to nonsensical conservative politics and their increasing political participation ushering in a new age of hope and prosperity for our country and our world.

In that case, Trump gets to claim he's at the top half of the bottom tier.

Almost getting his own vice president killed and turning off millennials doesn't make him a better president. It makes our society stronger than we thought it was. There is not a doubt in my mind that there will never be a worse person elected President. A person more unqualified and unfit for office. A person who represented every wrong instinct in America and who is responsible for hundreds of thousands of death and millions of people whose life will never be the same due to COVID. There is a philosophy in history that the times make the man, if that is the case Trump is in a league all his own. We are a weaker, more divided country with people who are actively fighting reality due mostly to listening to him and his enablers.

He not only will be the worst President we will ever have, but he is also among the worst leaders in history.

[OleMissCub]

A person more unqualified and unfit for office. A person who represented every wrong instinct in America

Amen. Of all the people in American history who ever had the slightest possibility at being POTUS, he's quite literally the worst person for that job and he actually achieved it.

Everything I hope to be as a man and everything I admire in myself and want to increase and everything i'm depressed about myself and want to change points in the complete opposite direction of what Trump has fully actualized in himself. He's just the most appalling person I can think of and that monster was the freaking President.

[Sammy Sofa]

Yeah, all of the other bad presidents were technically or arguably qualified to be president.

Well, except maybe for W.

But besides him, the gulf between everyone else who has been elected PUSA and Trump in terms of qualifications is insane. Someone like Buchanan and him aren't even in the same [expletive] horsefeathering dimension.

[CubinNY]

Yeah, all of the other bad presidents were technically or arguably qualified to be president.

Well, except maybe for W.

But besides him, the gulf between everyone else who has been elected PUSA and Trump in terms of qualifications is insane. Someone like Buchanan and him aren't even in the same [expletive] horsefeathering dimension.

W was at least a governor.

[NOLA]

Yeah, all of the other bad presidents were technically or arguably qualified to be president.

Well, except maybe for W.

But besides him, the gulf between everyone else who has been elected PUSA and Trump in terms of qualifications is insane. Someone like Buchanan and him aren't even in the same [expletive] horsefeathering dimension.

W was at least a governor.

The big difference between Trump and W is that W didn't have the ego that drove every decision, and he had his dad for a reference on qualified, while still truly awful people. As far as a fundamental understanding of the job of POTUS and the intellect to run a country effectively, the two were pretty close. I'll admit that I will despise W for the rest of my life, but my point still stands.

[Sammy Sofa]

Yeah, all of the other bad presidents were technically or arguably qualified to be president.

Well, except maybe for W.

But besides him, the gulf between everyone else who has been elected PUSA and Trump in terms of qualifications is insane. Someone like Buchanan and him aren't even in the same [expletive] horsefeathering dimension.

W was at least a governor.

He wasn't qualified for that, either.

Tangent: the cutesy redemption horsefeathers for that horsefeathers head is nauseating. Everyone acting like him and Michelle Obama being best buds is just the cutest widdle things are the horsefeathering worst.

[CyHawk_Cub]

Yeah, all of the other bad presidents were technically or arguably qualified to be president.

Well, except maybe for W.

But besides him, the gulf between everyone else who has been elected PUSA and Trump in terms of qualifications is insane. Someone like Buchanan and him aren't even in the same [expletive] horsefeathering dimension.

W was at least a governor.

He wasn't qualified for that, either.

Tangent: the cutesy redemption horsefeathers for that horsefeathers head is nauseating. Everyone acting like him and Michelle Obama being best buds is just the cutest widdle things are the horsefeathering worst.

Move on, turn the page, bro'.

[jersey cubs fan]

Yeah, all of the other bad presidents were technically or arguably qualified to be president.

Well, except maybe for W.

But besides him, the gulf between everyone else who has been elected PUSA and Trump in terms of qualifications is insane. Someone like Buchanan and him aren't even in the same [expletive] horsefeathering dimension.

W was at least a governor.

He wasn't qualified for that, either.

Tangent: the cutesy redemption horsefeathers for that horsefeathers head is nauseating. Everyone acting like him and Michelle Obama being best buds is just the cutest widdle things are the horsefeathering worst.

Counterpoint, I think this supposed redemption tour is all in the minds of a lot of people. He's still widely discussed as an awful president who just happened to do his awfulness in the traditional way. He's treated with a modicum of respect that all ex-presidents have been treated with prior to Trump taking a giant horsefeathers on the concept of respecting human beings, but he's literally just an occasional photo op guy. He was at the inauguration, he'll be at the next one too.

Although one thing I did think about is how Obama could very easily be the only living ex-president at some point in the not-too-distance future. All the others are in their 70s or more. Clinton looks terrible and Carter is supposedly on his death bed. God knows how Trump's body will react to everything going on around him in his mid 70s. W obviously has the genes to make it another couple decades, but he's the same age as the others and who knows what happens from here out on his ranch.

[minnesotacubsfan]

"...... who knows what happens from here out on his ranch"

woooaa buddy

[seanimal]

God knows how Trump's body will react to everything going on around him in his mid 70s.

i thought for sure he was going to die when he got the 'rona, but that whole episode just reinforced my belief that he's actually a giant cockroach who will somehow survive into his triple digits subsisting entirely on filet o'fish sandwiches, diet coke, and periodic doses of youth blood from peter thiel's startup

[OleMissCub]

Although one thing I did think about is how Obama could very easily be the only living ex-president at some point in the not-too-distance future. All the others are in their 70s or more. Clinton looks terrible and Carter is supposedly on his death bed. God knows how Trump's body will react to everything going on around him in his mid 70s. W obviously has the genes to make it another couple decades, but he's the same age as the others and who knows what happens from here out on his ranch.

It's probably just the exceptional healthcare they get, but I swear that Presidents must get some sort of long-life elixir pumped into their veins starting back in the 1970's.

Ford: 93
Carter: <96
Reagan: 93
HW Bush: 94

W has always been active and looks to be like he could survive into his 90's, and that definitely goes for Obama as well, but Clinton and Trump will certainly put my goofy theory to the test.

[Proven Veteran]

Totally agree that Clinton looked terrible at the inauguration. Still crazy that the guy who was president when I was in High School is younger than the president 28 years later.

[OleMissCub]

This is absolutely insane

[seanimal]

This is absolutely insane

is that from the new yorker article? you should read the whole thing, it's pretty mindblowing

edit: here's the link: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019 ... saurs-died

[JudasIscariotTheBird]

There is also a Nova episode that deals exclusively with describing the impact, and the geologic remnants at the impact location, but it isn't available to easily stream anymore.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/day-the-dinosaurs-died/

[OleMissCub]

This is absolutely insane

is that from the new yorker article? you should read the whole thing, it's pretty mindblowing

edit: here's the link: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019 ... saurs-died

Not from the same article but that article you linked was a terrific read. I hope that guy makes enough money and gets enough credibility from his find to get out of an apartment.

I'm also glad that Horner's "T-Rex scavenger" theory has seemingly been debunked. That theory just always seemed silly to me because...well...just LOOK at a T-Rex. Creatures in nature that look fvcking fierce generally are. If ever a creature existed on this planet that looked like an Apex Predator, it was T-Rex. It's impossible to look at Sue for the first time at the Field Museum and not be chilled to the bone.

[profisme]

This is absolutely insane

is that from the new yorker article? you should read the whole thing, it's pretty mindblowing

edit: here's the link: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019 ... saurs-died

Not from the same article but that article you linked was a terrific read. I hope that guy makes enough money and gets enough credibility from his find to get out of an apartment.

I'm also glad that Horner's "T-Rex scavenger" theory has seemingly been debunked. That theory just always seemed silly to me because...well...just LOOK at a T-Rex. Creatures in nature that look fvcking fierce generally are. If ever a creature existed on this planet that looked like an Apex Predator, it was T-Rex. It's impossible to look at Sue for the first time at the Field Museum and not be chilled to the bone.

An aside to Horner's scavenger theory is just how horsefeathering weird that dude is in real life. From his marriage at 66 years old to his 19 year old student/assistant to how he creepily ate lunch at the golf club I play at in Bozeman. One of my renters a couple years ago (she is very pretty but kind of oblivious to that fact) worked at the restaurant there and he would go up to look at her pretty often. Then later, he hired her to go do some drawings in Australia when he supervised a dig over there. For a while, she had a key to his house but I never asked her why.

[UMFan83]

Is there a good list or map of German work camps during WW2? My grandfather was in a work camp when he was around 10-11 years old until after the war and he has never shared really anything about his experience with me until yesterday. But he couldn't remember the camp he was in other than it was about 30 miles north (I think) of Munich, it was relatively small compared to other work/concentration camps and it was close enough to Dachau that he could hear and see some of the bombing when it was liberated about 2 weeks before my grandfather's camp was ultimately liberated by American troops.

Some fascinating (and sad) stories he had though. Conditions weren't great but nowhere near as bad as they were in concentration camps (after liberation he followed an American troop to Dachau and saw for himself all the gruesome conditions, people rail thin and walking around like zombies and that's not even mentioning the dead bodies. his experience was nothing like that). He talked about how the camp made this soup that was delicious and to this day wishes he could try again. He also mentioned how him and his 2 friends would sneak out of the camp some nights and go to German houses, knock on the door and beg for food and said most of them had looks of sadness if not outright crying as they gave them whatever extra food they had. Oh and after his camp was liberated, there was about 2 weeks where it was basically lawless in the town the camp was in...all the liberated people raided stores, ate big meals and just enjoyed being free. My grandfather stole a huge barrel with bottles of wine in it and had a bottle or two on a couple of occasions.

He's been super resistant to ever talk about it but once I got him to reflect he kept going and going, almost like years of memories came flooding back after years of repression.

[Sammy Sofa]

Is there a good list or map of German work camps during WW2? My grandfather was in a work camp when he was around 10-11 years old until after the war and he has never shared really anything about his experience with me until yesterday. But he couldn't remember the camp he was in other than it was about 30 miles north (I think) of Munich, it was relatively small compared to other work/concentration camps and it was close enough to Dachau that he could hear and see some of the bombing when it was liberated about 2 weeks before my grandfather's camp was ultimately liberated by American troops.

Some fascinating (and sad) stories he had though. Conditions weren't great but nowhere near as bad as they were in concentration camps (after liberation he followed an American troop to Dachau and saw for himself all the gruesome conditions, people rail thin and walking around like zombies and that's not even mentioning the dead bodies. his experience was nothing like that). He talked about how the camp made this soup that was delicious and to this day wishes he could try again. He also mentioned how him and his 2 friends would sneak out of the camp some nights and go to German houses, knock on the door and beg for food and said most of them had looks of sadness if not outright crying as they gave them whatever extra food they had. Oh and after his camp was liberated, there was about 2 weeks where it was basically lawless in the town the camp was in...all the liberated people raided stores, ate big meals and just enjoyed being free. My grandfather stole a huge barrel with bottles of wine in it and had a bottle or two on a couple of occasions.

He's been super resistant to ever talk about it but once I got him to reflect he kept going and going, almost like years of memories came flooding back after years of repression.

If it was that close to Dachau might it be one of these?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... _of_Dachau

Slow day at work, so some relatively quick searching found this:

https://www.porta-polonica.de/en/atlas- ... -neuaubing

That's in the western suburbs of Munich, not too far south of Dachau. The site says that the history of the smaller labor camps is something that unfortunately is much more murky vs. what is known about the larger camps and the concentration camps.

[UMFan83]

Is there a good list or map of German work camps during WW2? My grandfather was in a work camp when he was around 10-11 years old until after the war and he has never shared really anything about his experience with me until yesterday. But he couldn't remember the camp he was in other than it was about 30 miles north (I think) of Munich, it was relatively small compared to other work/concentration camps and it was close enough to Dachau that he could hear and see some of the bombing when it was liberated about 2 weeks before my grandfather's camp was ultimately liberated by American troops.

Some fascinating (and sad) stories he had though. Conditions weren't great but nowhere near as bad as they were in concentration camps (after liberation he followed an American troop to Dachau and saw for himself all the gruesome conditions, people rail thin and walking around like zombies and that's not even mentioning the dead bodies. his experience was nothing like that). He talked about how the camp made this soup that was delicious and to this day wishes he could try again. He also mentioned how him and his 2 friends would sneak out of the camp some nights and go to German houses, knock on the door and beg for food and said most of them had looks of sadness if not outright crying as they gave them whatever extra food they had. Oh and after his camp was liberated, there was about 2 weeks where it was basically lawless in the town the camp was in...all the liberated people raided stores, ate big meals and just enjoyed being free. My grandfather stole a huge barrel with bottles of wine in it and had a bottle or two on a couple of occasions.

He's been super resistant to ever talk about it but once I got him to reflect he kept going and going, almost like years of memories came flooding back after years of repression.

If it was that close to Dachau might it be one of these?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... _of_Dachau

Slow day at work, so some relatively quick searching found this:

https://www.porta-polonica.de/en/atlas- ... -neuaubing

That's in the western suburbs of Munich, not too far south of Dachau. The site says that the history of the smaller labor camps is something that unfortunately is much more murky vs. what is known about the larger camps and the concentrations camps.

Thank you! that is super helpful. Might be difficult to find the exact camp but this gives me something to work off of.

[Proven Veteran]

Is there a good list or map of German work camps during WW2? My grandfather was in a work camp when he was around 10-11 years old until after the war and he has never shared really anything about his experience with me until yesterday. But he couldn't remember the camp he was in other than it was about 30 miles north (I think) of Munich, it was relatively small compared to other work/concentration camps and it was close enough to Dachau that he could hear and see some of the bombing when it was liberated about 2 weeks before my grandfather's camp was ultimately liberated by American troops.

Some fascinating (and sad) stories he had though. Conditions weren't great but nowhere near as bad as they were in concentration camps (after liberation he followed an American troop to Dachau and saw for himself all the gruesome conditions, people rail thin and walking around like zombies and that's not even mentioning the dead bodies. his experience was nothing like that). He talked about how the camp made this soup that was delicious and to this day wishes he could try again. He also mentioned how him and his 2 friends would sneak out of the camp some nights and go to German houses, knock on the door and beg for food and said most of them had looks of sadness if not outright crying as they gave them whatever extra food they had. Oh and after his camp was liberated, there was about 2 weeks where it was basically lawless in the town the camp was in...all the liberated people raided stores, ate big meals and just enjoyed being free. My grandfather stole a huge barrel with bottles of wine in it and had a bottle or two on a couple of occasions.

He's been super resistant to ever talk about it but once I got him to reflect he kept going and going, almost like years of memories came flooding back after years of repression.

This is amazing. I highly recommend getting him on video talking about it.

[OleMissCub]

He's been super resistant to ever talk about it but once I got him to reflect he kept going and going, almost like years of memories came flooding back after years of repression.

What happened to his family? Did his parents survive?