The History Thread

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Re: The History Thread

Postby Banedon » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:19 pm

This Corey Stewart guy running for Gov in VA is really prepared to die on this "Confederate monument" hill...he won't stop tweeting about it.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby CubinNY » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:35 pm

Banedon wrote:This Corey Stewart guy running for Gov in VA is really prepared to die on this "Confederate monument" hill...he won't stop tweeting about it.

He's from Minnesota, that is perhaps the proverbial cherry on the top of the horsefeathers cake. No matter what he says, he'll still be a Yankee. I think that might be the primary motivation behind this.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:19 pm

biittner77 wrote:
OleMissCub wrote:
Derwood wrote:
More racist than Andrew Jackson?


Or the other 11 presidents who actually owned other humans as chattel


Yes. He was President of an Ivy League school. He was educated and raised after slavery had been abolished. He should have known better and still said this. Wilson must be judged by 20th century values.


Hopefully you pointed out that how he enacted strict segregation in DC's federal offices and the military was a heck of a lot more racist than his movie blurbs (and that he was super racist as president of Yale, too, what with his very vocal refusal to admit black students). No need to look at it through a modern lens at all; dude was racist then and now.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:21 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
biittner77 wrote:
OleMissCub wrote:
Or the other 11 presidents who actually owned other humans as chattel


Yes. He was President of an Ivy League school. He was educated and raised after slavery had been abolished. He should have known better and still said this. Wilson must be judged by 20th century values.


Hopefully you pointed out that how he enacted strict segregation in DC's federal offices and the military was a heck of a lot more racist than his movie blurbs (and that he was super racist as president of Yale, too, what with his very vocal refusal to admit black students). No need to look at it through a modern lens at all; dude was racist then and now.

You know its the 21st century now, right?
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Re: The History Thread

Postby biittner77 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:30 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
biittner77 wrote:
Yes. He was President of an Ivy League school. He was educated and raised after slavery had been abolished. He should have known better and still said this. Wilson must be judged by 20th century values.


Hopefully you pointed out that how he enacted strict segregation in DC's federal offices and the military was a heck of a lot more racist than his movie blurbs (and that he was super racist as president of Yale, too, what with his very vocal refusal to admit black students). No need to look at it through a modern lens at all; dude was racist then and now.

You know its the 21st century now, right?


Wilson was alive and remembered for what he did during the 20th century. That context is important when comparing him to people like Thomas Jefferson who owned slaves but lived during a time when the idea that slavery was wrong was still a new idea.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby jersey cubs fan » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:41 pm

biittner77 wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
Hopefully you pointed out that how he enacted strict segregation in DC's federal offices and the military was a heck of a lot more racist than his movie blurbs (and that he was super racist as president of Yale, too, what with his very vocal refusal to admit black students). No need to look at it through a modern lens at all; dude was racist then and now.

You know its the 21st century now, right?


Wilson was alive and remembered for what he did during the 20th century. That context is important when comparing him to people like Thomas Jefferson who owned slaves but lived during a time when the idea that slavery was wrong was still a new idea.

I think it's important to point out Wilson was born before the civil war, came out of the confederacy and was essentially raised and educated in the south during reconstruction. He was probably very much in tune with the bigots of his time.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:51 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
biittner77 wrote:
Yes. He was President of an Ivy League school. He was educated and raised after slavery had been abolished. He should have known better and still said this. Wilson must be judged by 20th century values.


Hopefully you pointed out that how he enacted strict segregation in DC's federal offices and the military was a heck of a lot more racist than his movie blurbs (and that he was super racist as president of Yale, too, what with his very vocal refusal to admit black students). No need to look at it through a modern lens at all; dude was racist then and now.

You know its the 21st century now, right?


Yes? Wilson did actively did horsefeathers far more racist than being a fan of BoaN. He wasn't just maintaining the status quo in DC; he showed up and actually reversed integration that had occurred long before he took office. That was extra racist for a president, even for the early 20th century.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:53 pm

biittner77 wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
Hopefully you pointed out that how he enacted strict segregation in DC's federal offices and the military was a heck of a lot more racist than his movie blurbs (and that he was super racist as president of Yale, too, what with his very vocal refusal to admit black students). No need to look at it through a modern lens at all; dude was racist then and now.

You know its the 21st century now, right?


Wilson was alive and remembered for what he did during the 20th century. That context is important when comparing him to people like Thomas Jefferson who owned slaves but lived during a time when the idea that slavery was wrong was still a new idea.

Yea it just reads as Sammy misunderstanding your point since he mentions a modern lens and you reference 20th century. You were judging him by his time as I read it.

Also how new of an idea really was the idea that slavery=wrong? I think we can give those founding fathers-era guys a fair bit of criticism here, even in a relativism scope of morality.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:54 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
Hopefully you pointed out that how he enacted strict segregation in DC's federal offices and the military was a heck of a lot more racist than his movie blurbs (and that he was super racist as president of Yale, too, what with his very vocal refusal to admit black students). No need to look at it through a modern lens at all; dude was racist then and now.

You know its the 21st century now, right?

That was extra racist for a president, even for the early 20th century.

Isnt that what bittner said?
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Re: The History Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:14 pm

Oh, now I understand what this is about; it sounded like he was hanging his "Wilson was a racist" hat on the BoaN comments, so I mentioned the actual racist stuff he did because it's a much better argument than "he liked that racist-ass movie." Confusingly, I was then replying to the sentiment of jersey's post while being too lazy to also quote him.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:45 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:Oh, now I understand what this is about; it sounded like he was hanging his "Wilson was a racist" hat on the BoaN comments, so I mentioned the actual racist stuff he did because it's a much better argument than "he liked that racist-ass movie." Confusingly, I was then replying to the sentiment of jersey's post while being too lazy to also quote him.

Well dont be so lazy.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby jersey cubs fan » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:48 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:Oh, now I understand what this is about; it sounded like he was hanging his "Wilson was a racist" hat on the BoaN comments, so I mentioned the actual racist stuff he did because it's a much better argument than "he liked that racist-ass movie." Confusingly, I was then replying to the sentiment of jersey's post while being too lazy to also quote him.

Well dont be so lazy.

to be clear, the sentiment of my post was just noting that he was a product of late 19th century bigots and as an early 20th century guy he wasn't exactly the lone wolf of being a piece of horsefeathers. Rated against his contemporaries he was terrible, regardless.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:13 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:Oh, now I understand what this is about; it sounded like he was hanging his "Wilson was a racist" hat on the BoaN comments, so I mentioned the actual racist stuff he did because it's a much better argument than "he liked that racist-ass movie." Confusingly, I was then replying to the sentiment of jersey's post while being too lazy to also quote him.

Well dont be so lazy.

to be clear, the sentiment of my post was just noting that he was a product of late 19th century bigots and as an early 20th century guy he wasn't exactly the lone wolf of being a piece of horsefeathers. Rated against his contemporaries he was terrible, regardless.


Plus it's not like Wilson was a bundle of awfulness; the guy had a ton of really impressive and progressive ideas in regards to the role of the president and the US, and really helped usher in what we look at as "the modern president." All of that makes his racism that much more appalling and glaring.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby biittner77 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:36 pm

Also how new of an idea really was the idea that slavery=wrong? I think we can give those founding fathers-era guys a fair bit of criticism here, even in a relativism scope of morality.


In western thought, the idea that slavery is wrong starts with the Enlightenment. In 1764 Voltaire spoke against it though he was very progressive for his time and a lot of his contemporaries hated him. The revolutionary governments of France abolished slavery in 1791 but Napoleon brought it back in 1804 since he needed the revenue from Haiti which is why the Haitians had their own revolution. Vermont abolished Slavery in 1777 and Massachusetts in 1783. An anti slavery movement started in Britain in 1787. Britain abolished slavery (though they didn't abolish it in their colonies right away) in 1833.

So for people like Washington and Jefferson, they could have been on the vanguard of abolishing slavery in the US but they didn't/ weren't. To do so would have likely meant financial ruin, particularly for Jefferson. They still could have done it but their peers never thought less of them when they didn't.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby Derwood » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:40 pm

There were anti-slavery Founding Fathers (chiefly Alexander Hamilton, who regretfully bargained away abolition in order to gain support for his financial system).
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Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:44 pm

Derwood wrote:There were anti-slavery Founding Fathers (chiefly Alexander Hamilton, who regretfully bargained away abolition in order to gain support for his financial system).


Interestingly enough, anti-slavery legislation was an issue that he and Burr were fervently teamed up on.

It's hard to reconcile some of the actions of the founders regarding slavery. I feel they certainly understood it was a moral abomination, and they undertook steps to fix the issue, so long as it didn't effect them personally. Most notably the fact that Washington freed his slaves upon his death and that Jefferson criminalized the importation of slaves to the US. While these are both good deeds, neither of them came with any sacrifice to the men themselves.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:02 pm

Yeah, it's not like America at the time of the revolution was just following the trends of the rest of the world with the slavery-reliant economy; though a number of formal abolishing acts technically came later, by the time of the revolution most of the modern was looking at America as a bunch of slave-drunk bumpkins.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby CubinNY » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:13 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote: most of the modern was looking at America as a bunch of slave-drunk bumpkins.

How little things change in 241 years.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby jersey cubs fan » Wed May 17, 2017 4:36 pm

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Re: The History Thread

Postby jersey cubs fan » Tue May 23, 2017 6:59 pm




I read this last night and thought it was really well done.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby jersey cubs fan » Tue May 23, 2017 9:14 pm

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Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:04 pm

This is pretty sweet. View from inside the bombardier and navigator's position in a B-17.

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Re: The History Thread

Postby Banedon » Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:26 pm

The History Channel is doing a special on a new Amelia Earhart theory this Sunday...and I was ready to dismiss it, but this article has me interested....

http://ew.com/tv/2017/07/05/amelia-earh ... ved-photo/
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Re: The History Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:07 pm

You're being sarcastic, right?

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Re: The History Thread

Postby Banedon » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:17 pm

It's interesting enough for me to watch.
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