The History Thread

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Re: The History Thread

Postby Geech » Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:27 am

OleMissCub wrote:Their artillery had kept up a nighttime barrage for the previous week, hoping to deprive the defenders of sleep. On the night before the attack, there was no barrage, so the defenders basically were all asleep.


Do the accounts of Susanna and Joe agree on these points?
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Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:46 am

Sammy Sofa wrote:I AM a history dork, and find it a passing curiosity at best on par with something like Little Big Horn. Outside of some historical figures who were much interesting at earlier points in their life meeting their ends there...meh. To each their own; I couldn't fathom wanting to pore over the thing like it's some great turning point or moment in history or really all that unique.


It certainly was not a turning point in history. Houston would have figured out how to beat Santa Anna regardless of how the Alamo turned out. I'll disagree with you on it not being unique. It's pretty damn unique, especially given the celebrities involved.

I've only ever read two books about it, Three Roads to the Alamo, a triple biography about Crockett, Bowie, and Travis, and the book I just finished Exodus from the Alamo. I'm pretty sure my above average interest in it stems from an Alamo playset I got when I was like 5 when my family visited San Antonio. I also grew up with a VHS of the Wayneamo, which I watched a ton as a kid.

Regardless, I'm about 1% into it as many people in Texas are. The amount of crappy paintings and dumb statues you see out there are obscene.

I had this one. love Bowie in his bed clothes, lol. In reality he may have already died of illness by the time the attack happened.

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Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:53 am

Geech wrote:
OleMissCub wrote:Their artillery had kept up a nighttime barrage for the previous week, hoping to deprive the defenders of sleep. On the night before the attack, there was no barrage, so the defenders basically were all asleep.


Do the accounts of Susanna and Joe agree on these points?


Yeah. Joe was sleeping in the same room with Travis when they were both awakened by gunfire and rushed out to the walls. When they reached the walls, the Mexicans were already trying to climb up them with ladders. Travis only got one shot off before he was shot in the forehead. He may have even been the first defender killed.

Susanna and her husband were sleeping in the chapel with the other married men and their families. When they woke up he rushed out and only a few minutes later she said he came back and told her that the Mexicans were over the walls and to take care of their baby. That was the last she saw of him.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:04 am

Interesting note about Joe is that he escaped slavery a little while after the Alamo and was never seen again, so good for Joe.

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Re: The History Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:40 am

OleMissCub wrote:It certainly was not a turning point in history. Houston would have figured out how to beat Santa Anna regardless of how the Alamo turned out. I'll disagree with you on it not being unique. It's pretty damn unique, especially given the celebrities involved.


In a similar way that the Titanic is "unique" in that a bunch of rich/famous people died on it, too. Probably not all that coincidental that people are so obsessive over that, too. Just seems like a historical curiosity to me more than anything else.

I'm pretty sure my grandparents had a bunch of those figures in this big drum they had of assorted army plastic figures from over the decades. Man, I loved that...it seemed like they had a thousand different ones.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:50 am

Sammy Sofa wrote:
In a similar way that the Titanic is "unique" in that a bunch of rich/famous people died on it, too. Probably not all that coincidental that people are so obsessive over that, too. Just seems like a historical curiosity to me more than anything else.


I highly doubt people are interested in the Titanic because there were famous people on board. The Titanic has its own allure, which contributes to peoples fascination: biggest ship ever built at the time, maiden voyage, only large ship in history to ever sink from an iceberg, too few lifeboats, women and children first, all that dramatic stuff. Sure, you've got a couple of names that a few people might know now, such as Astor and Guggenheim, but in the Alamo we're talking about Davy, Davy Crockett, King of the Wild Frontier. You've also got Jim Bowie too. Both those guys had their own TV and radio shows in the 50's and 60's and it wasn't because they died in the Alamo. Point me toward another instance where the most famous person in a country is killed in a dramatic last stand along with all of his friends fighting against a force 20 times their size. C'mon, it's unique. Don't belabor that point. Focus on how overhyped it is due to it accomplishing nothing of note.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby Derwood » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:38 am

Sammy Sofa wrote:
OleMissCub wrote:It certainly was not a turning point in history. Houston would have figured out how to beat Santa Anna regardless of how the Alamo turned out. I'll disagree with you on it not being unique. It's pretty damn unique, especially given the celebrities involved.


In a similar way that the Titanic is "unique" in that a bunch of rich/famous people died on it, too. Probably not all that coincidental that people are so obsessive over that, too. Just seems like a historical curiosity to me more than anything else.

I'm pretty sure my grandparents had a bunch of those figures in this big drum they had of assorted army plastic figures from over the decades. Man, I loved that...it seemed like they had a thousand different ones.


My dad has spent basically his whole life collecting cruise ship memorabilia. When most people meet him and find this out, they always ask him about the Titanic. He tells them that he finds it to be one of the least interesting ships of all time.....it didn't even make one complete voyage. It's famous because of the pomp and circumstance surrounding it, but he's always been more interested in ships that actually go places
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Re: The History Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:50 am

OleMissCub wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
In a similar way that the Titanic is "unique" in that a bunch of rich/famous people died on it, too. Probably not all that coincidental that people are so obsessive over that, too. Just seems like a historical curiosity to me more than anything else.


I highly doubt people are interested in the Titanic because there were famous people on board. The Titanic has its own allure, which contributes to peoples fascination: biggest ship ever built at the time, maiden voyage, only large ship in history to ever sink from an iceberg, too few lifeboats, women and children first, all that dramatic stuff. Sure, you've got a couple of names that a few people might know now, such as Astor and Guggenheim, but in the Alamo we're talking about Davy, Davy Crockett, King of the Wild Frontier. You've also got Jim Bowie too. Both those guys had their own TV and radio shows in the 50's and 60's and it wasn't because they died in the Alamo. Point me toward another instance where the most famous person in a country is killed in a dramatic last stand along with all of his friends fighting against a force 20 times their size. C'mon, it's unique. Don't belabor that point. Focus on how overhyped it is due to it accomplishing nothing of note.


Like I said, fascinating lives are more interesting than just their deaths. People are suckers for melodrama. You can learn everything you need to know about the Alamo in, like, 10 minutes.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:52 am

Derwood wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
OleMissCub wrote:It certainly was not a turning point in history. Houston would have figured out how to beat Santa Anna regardless of how the Alamo turned out. I'll disagree with you on it not being unique. It's pretty damn unique, especially given the celebrities involved.


In a similar way that the Titanic is "unique" in that a bunch of rich/famous people died on it, too. Probably not all that coincidental that people are so obsessive over that, too. Just seems like a historical curiosity to me more than anything else.

I'm pretty sure my grandparents had a bunch of those figures in this big drum they had of assorted army plastic figures from over the decades. Man, I loved that...it seemed like they had a thousand different ones.


My dad has spent basically his whole life collecting cruise ship memorabilia. When most people meet him and find this out, they always ask him about the Titanic. He tells them that he finds it to be one of the least interesting ships of all time.....it didn't even make one complete voyage. It's famous because of the pomp and circumstance surrounding it, but he's always been more interested in ships that actually go places


Ask him if the Andrea Doria actually eased into the water like an old man into a nice warm bath.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:58 am

Sammy Sofa wrote:You can learn everything you need to know about the Alamo in, like, 10 minutes.


hello Captain Hyperbole.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:15 am

In fact, I think the Wiki entry is a tad too long. Someone really needs to edit it down.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:35 am

Sammy Sofa wrote:In fact, I think the Wiki entry is a tad too long. Someone really needs to edit it down.


You'd be a fan of General Sherman's pithiness. During one of the aborted attempts to take Vicksburg, Sherman assaulted the northern part of the city in what became known as the Battle of Chickasaw Bayou. His army got its ass handed to them so badly (his casualties were literally 10-1 those of the Confederates, losing almost 2,000 men) that his official After Action Report, which were usually like 10 pages long for an action of that size, simply read: "Attacked. Was repulsed." It's the shortest AAR in the history of the US Army.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:39 am

He was stern.

But fair.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby biittner77 » Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:36 am

I'm pretty sure my grandparents had a bunch of those figures in this big drum they had of assorted army plastic figures from over the decades. Man, I loved that...it seemed like they had a thousand different ones.

My grandparents had the same sort of thing.

The ones your grandparents had were probably from the Louis Marx toy company which were way better than those in that set which is made by BMC. #toysoldiernerd
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Re: The History Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:32 pm

biittner77 wrote:I'm pretty sure my grandparents had a bunch of those figures in this big drum they had of assorted army plastic figures from over the decades. Man, I loved that...it seemed like they had a thousand different ones.

My grandparents had the same sort of thing.

The ones your grandparents had were probably from the Louis Marx toy company which were way better than those in that set which is made by BMC. #toysoldiernerd


Hahahah! Hey, those toys somehow survived them having six sons and then about two dozen grandkids and a couple great-grandkids, so that sounds about right.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:08 pm

I think Mojo is right. No other historical blip out there has ever been turned into essentially a religion.

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Some of the goofy Alamo art out there:

Spoiler: show
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Travis swordfighting. Ya right.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby Banedon » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:17 pm

OleMissCub wrote:I think Mojo is right. No other historical blip out there has ever been turned into essentially a religion.


Paul Revere's Ride maybe?
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Re: The History Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:22 pm

We all missed the elephant in the room:

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Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:26 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:We all missed the elephant in the room:

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Indeed. Or the least massacrey massacre of all time.

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Re: The History Thread

Postby Banedon » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:28 pm

Pretty much colonial Boston as a whole.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:37 pm

Here's a review of Exodus from the Alamo that explains what the author believes from his research on the surviving Mexican accounts.

As to the battle, there was none. As author Roger Borroel has long contended, it was nothing but a quick rout. Under the cover of darkness, the 1400 troops moved towards the Alamo totally unmolested and were already coming over the walls before the alarm was sounded. A few Texians, including Travis ran toward the north wall, but it was already too late. As soon as Travis appeared above the Mexicans on the north wall, he was shot through the head. The only return fire from the Alamo came from the guns on the Alamo church which caused Romero’s column to veer toward the north wall. The only pause the Mexicans experienced there was caused by too few ladders, not Texian gunfire. One gun on the north wall finally swung into action, but its discharge sang harmlessly over the heads of the soldados. Another discharge hit the rear ranks, but because the powder was poor and damp, the shrapnel merely bounced off the chests of the stricken soldados. By the time the defenders in the Long Barrack were awakened by the cannon fire from the Alamo church, the plaza was already filled with troops. Some of these defenders were caught unarmed and killed outright. Others made a beeline over the west wall. Yet others ran south out the lunette and headed east. 62 men at the palisade also exited through a sally port and headed east. As Crockett’s body was supposed to have been found inside the fort, the author contends that Crockett was one of the few defenders to stay behind and give cover fire for those fleeing. Crockett was overcome, captured, and later executed with a handful of other Texians. Most of the defenders inside the Long Barrack never even left the building to go to the walls. Bowie, laying on his cot, likely managed to fire his two pistols at the soldados who entered his room before being bayoneted to death. While some put up resistance, many others merely tried to find a place to hide. The only last stand made in the Alamo was by Dickinson, Bonham, and the gunners at the back of the church who gave cover fire to the over 100 men heading east---right into the waiting lances of the Dolores cavalry. 20 minutes had passed. The rout of the Alamo was then complete, but the killing and searching out of stragglers would continue on for several hours. 252 defenders died. Of the 288 Mexican casualties, maybe half were caused by friendly fire during the dark and smokey chaos.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:43 am

Just came across a list of the 30 Native Americans that were killed at Little Big Horn (18 fighting Custer, 12 fighting Reno). Some of these names are outstanding.

Bad Light Hair - Oglala Sioux
Bear With Horns - Minniconjou Sioux
Big Design - Oglala Sioux
Black Fox - Oglala Sioux
Black Moon - Hunkpapa Sioux
Black Wasichu - Oglala Sioux
Breech Cloth - Minniconjou Sioux
Chased By Owls - Two Kettle Sioux
Chatka - Hunkpapa Sioux (was a scout at Ft. Lincoln)
Closed Hand - Northern Cheyenne
Cloud Man - Sans Arc Sioux
Cut Belly/Open Belly - Northern Cheyenne (died of wounds)
Deeds - Hunkpapa Sioux
Dog With Horns - Minniconjou Sioux
Dog's Back Bone - Minniconjou Sioux
Elk Bear - Sans Arc Sioux
Elk Stands Alone - Sans Arc Sioux
Flying By/Limber Bones - Northern Cheyenne
Hawk Man - Hunkpapa Sioux
High Eagle - Lakota Sioux
High Horse - Minniconjou Sioux
Kills Him - Sans Arc Sioux
Lame White Man - Southern Cheyenne
Lone Dog - Sans Arc Sioux
Long Road/Eagle Hat - Sans Arc Sioux
Noisy Walking/Left Hand - Northern Cheyenne
Owns Red Horse - Northern Cheyenne
Plenty Lice - Oglala Sioux
Rectum/Guts/Open Belly - Hunkpapa Sioux
Red Face - Hunkpapa Sioux
Roman Nose/Hump Nose - Northern Cheyenne
Swift Bear - Hunkpapa Sioux
Three Bears - Minniconjou Sioux (died of wounds)
Whirlwind/Swift Cloud - Northern Cheyenne
White Bull - Hunkpapa Sioux
White Eagle - Oglala Sioux
Young Bear - Lakota
Young Skunk - Oglala Sioux
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Re: The History Thread

Postby Banedon » Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:06 pm

An animation of the sinking of the Titanic in real time, created for an upcoming Titanic video game. Has time-stamped captions.

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Re: The History Thread

Postby OleMissCub » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:23 pm

Man, those last few minutes. Terrifying.

And ya, definitely getting that game, for no other reason than to just walk around and explore the ship. I remember playing a real primitive version of what that appears to be back in the 90's. It was called Titanic: Out of Time or something like that. It allowed you to walk around the ship and stuff.
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Re: The History Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:40 pm

OleMissCub wrote:Man, those last few minutes. Terrifying.

And ya, definitely getting that game, for no other reason than to just walk around and explore the ship. I remember playing a real primitive version of what that appears to be back in the 90's. It was called Titanic: Out of Time or something like that. It allowed you to walk around the ship and stuff.


I remember really enjoying that game. It was a pretty good mystery game for the time, especially how the storyline could play out multiple ways.
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