Game of Thrones

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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Tue May 14, 2019 6:39 pm

snoodmonger wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:
snoodmonger wrote:
lol, gmafb she saved Jon Snow. It's great that you have no issues at all with her storyline. For the most part I don't either. But it's ridiculous that you refuse to acknowledge why viewers are having trouble turning on a character who has been largely portrayed in a very sympathetic way the entire show.

She may have saved Jon, but her direct contributions to winning the battle were nil. The unsullied were key as they delayed things enough to basically allow the hail Mary save by Arya. But her and her dragon were basically useless.

Also she can be portrayed sympathetically and still be a complicated character that's asks viewers to think many things. Was there a contingent who saw her as an Azor Ahai type savior to the storyline?


Only watched it once, but I'm pretty sure she also strafed massive hordes of the undead, too, but whatever.

All in all, this is such a silly argument. Some people watch TV very emotionally. Those people are being asked to suddenly (in their opinions) stop rooting for a character they've liked for a long time. I can see why this character development was hard for them to take. If you think those people are dumb troglodytes, more power to you.

I have less of an issue with anyone emotionally blindsided from their favorite characters actions than the people complaining like it was some distaster and random heel turn and, "man, don't the writers get what they're supposed to be doing attitude"

If you are emotionally distraught from the events, that's fine. It's actually a great time to reflect and realize you cheered for this person as much as a means to an end the because of purely good means.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby OleMissCub » Tue May 14, 2019 6:42 pm

Or what about Ellaria Sand? Presumably she’s dead at this point.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby Brian » Tue May 14, 2019 6:47 pm

I'm not expecting to change any minds, but here is something I didn't think of and hadn't seen before

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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Tue May 14, 2019 6:49 pm

OleMissCub wrote:
CubinNY wrote:Arya going home to Winterfell or is she going to help Jon?


The show runners are seemingly wanting us to think that she’s riding off because she has a new name on her list, but they are apparently obsessed without subverting audience expectations, so ya maybe she is just going home.

I expect her to try and kill Dany and that she’ll die in the process.


Arya is one character that I don't think they kill off. Jon Snow, however, will get torched (my guess) and the show will close with Arya, Sansa and the Wildlings perpetually poised against Dany.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby jersey cubs fan » Tue May 14, 2019 6:49 pm

OleMissCub wrote:Or what about Ellaria Sand? Presumably she’s dead at this point.

well, cersei said she'd keep her alive to watch her daughter's corpse rot. They may have forgotten to feed her this week though
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby Derwood » Tue May 14, 2019 6:50 pm

If people are pissed by the videos of B&W explaining the episodes, there is a super simple solution....
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Tue May 14, 2019 6:50 pm

Brian wrote:I'm not expecting to change any minds, but here is something I didn't think of and hadn't seen before


I also wouldn't be surprised to find out she knew about Tyrion's treason by the time the battle had begun.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Tue May 14, 2019 6:51 pm

FWIW


long'ish thread:
Spoiler: show













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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby Derwood » Tue May 14, 2019 6:56 pm

Great thread, thanks for that.

Though I would argue that GRRM isn't a "pantser" considering he laid out thousands of years of detailed history before he even started writing the story.

That said, Stephen King is the ultimate "pantser", which is why his books are exactly as that Twitter thread described (great characters, but mostly unsatisfactory endings)
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby jersey cubs fan » Tue May 14, 2019 7:02 pm

Derwood wrote:Though I would argue that GRRM isn't a "pantser" considering he laid out thousands of years of detailed history before he even started writing the story.


Before?
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Tue May 14, 2019 7:03 pm

Derwood wrote:Great thread, thanks for that.

Though I would argue that GRRM isn't a "pantser" considering he laid out thousands of years of detailed history before he even started writing the story.

That said, Stephen King is the ultimate "pantser", which is why his books are exactly as that Twitter thread described (great characters, but mostly unsatisfactory endings)

Is it fair to say he plotted it, but allowed his pantsing to take over the plotting?
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby Derwood » Tue May 14, 2019 7:06 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:
Derwood wrote:Though I would argue that GRRM isn't a "pantser" considering he laid out thousands of years of detailed history before he even started writing the story.


Before?


There's no way he made up that history on the fly. He had to have figured a lot of it out ahead of time.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby Derwood » Tue May 14, 2019 7:08 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Derwood wrote:Great thread, thanks for that.

Though I would argue that GRRM isn't a "pantser" considering he laid out thousands of years of detailed history before he even started writing the story.

That said, Stephen King is the ultimate "pantser", which is why his books are exactly as that Twitter thread described (great characters, but mostly unsatisfactory endings)

Is it fair to say he plotted it, but allowed his pantsing to take over the plotting?


I'd say that he plotted the world of the story in detail, but very much let the characters roam about without clear direction, which is why the books are so completely lost in the weeds
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Tue May 14, 2019 7:14 pm

Derwood wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Derwood wrote:Great thread, thanks for that.

Though I would argue that GRRM isn't a "pantser" considering he laid out thousands of years of detailed history before he even started writing the story.

That said, Stephen King is the ultimate "pantser", which is why his books are exactly as that Twitter thread described (great characters, but mostly unsatisfactory endings)

Is it fair to say he plotted it, but allowed his pantsing to take over the plotting?


I'd say that he plotted the world of the story in detail, but very much let the characters roam about without clear direction, which is why the books are so completely lost in the weeds

From what we know, he did have an ending in mind that he shared with B+W though right? I've always understood that the ultimate conclusion would be relatively true to the (unwritten) cannon.

Or he basically came up with the idea to kill Ned in book 1 and R+L=J and the rest is him just winging it through characters.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Tue May 14, 2019 7:51 pm

I'll have you guys know that a poster that I shall refuse to name PM'd me and said that he thinks that you writer apologists are a bunch of pathetic bags of suckage. Paraphrasing. :stickman:
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby Derwood » Tue May 14, 2019 8:01 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:I'll have you guys know that a poster that I shall refuse to name PM'd me and said that he thinks that you writer apologists are a bunch of pathetic bags of suckage. Paraphrasing. :stickman:


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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby jersey cubs fan » Tue May 14, 2019 8:06 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:I'll have you guys know that a poster that I shall refuse to name PM'd me and said that he thinks that you writer apologists are a bunch of pathetic bags of suckage. Paraphrasing. :stickman:

For the record, I think there is plenty to complain about.

I don't think the complaints about Dany's arc are justified.

I didn't like most of episode 4. The Dorne and Iron Island storylines have stunk, but the latter is mostly on GRRM, imo. Frankly, the fact that it's taken George this long to even get to the next stage in the story tells you everything about what an impossible task this has been. I think they've done a good job. Not great, but good.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Tue May 14, 2019 8:15 pm

Yeah, I just disagree. If Jon kills Sansa at Dany's request next episode and I question wtf is going on, I swear someone is going to tell me "We saw this coming a long time ago. He's a Targaryen, after all, and we saw him execute Slynt and Thorne and Ollie, and butched multiple wildlings just trying to flee to safety. He has been willing to kill since day 1. This is completely within his character. Dood is just crazy now."
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby jersey cubs fan » Tue May 14, 2019 8:19 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:Yeah, I just disagree. If Jon kills Sansa at Dany's request next episode and I question wtf is going on, I swear someone is going to tell me "We saw this coming a long time ago. He's a Targaryen, after all, and we saw him execute Slynt and Thorne and Ollie, and butched multiple wildlings just trying to flee to safety. He has been willing to kill since day 1. This is completely within his character. Dood is just crazy now."

no, they wouldn't because unlike dany doing what she did, which, again, we all knew was coming, this would be a crazy out of nowhere move
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Tue May 14, 2019 8:20 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:I'll have you guys know that a poster that I shall refuse to name PM'd me and said that he thinks that you writer apologists are a bunch of pathetic bags of suckage. Paraphrasing. :stickman:

For the record, I think there is plenty to complain about.

I don't think the complaints about Dany's arc are justified.

I didn't like most of episode 4. The Dorne and Iron Island storylines have stunk, but the latter is mostly on GRRM, imo. Frankly, the fact that it's taken George this long to even get to the next stage in the story tells you everything about what an impossible task this has been. I think they've done a good job. Not great, but good.

If you don't think this season is a disaster you are a writer apologist.

If you think 2 additional seasons would be an inappropriate length of time to work through Danys descent to madness you are a writer apologist.

I think that's basically where we are at.
Last edited by WrigleyField 22 on Tue May 14, 2019 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Tue May 14, 2019 8:21 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:Yeah, I just disagree. If Jon kills Sansa at Dany's request next episode and I question wtf is going on, I swear someone is going to tell me "We saw this coming a long time ago. He's a Targaryen, after all, and we saw him execute Slynt and Thorne and Ollie, and butched multiple wildlings just trying to flee to safety. He has been willing to kill since day 1. This is completely within his character. Dood is just crazy now."

no, they wouldn't because unlike dany doing what she did, which, again, we all knew was coming, this would be a crazy out of nowhere move

I see you understood my analogy. You're right, it would happen in one episode instead of sprinkled over three. My bad.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Tue May 14, 2019 8:22 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:Yeah, I just disagree. If Jon kills Sansa at Dany's request next episode and I question wtf is going on, I swear someone is going to tell me "We saw this coming a long time ago. He's a Targaryen, after all, and we saw him execute Slynt and Thorne and Ollie, and butched multiple wildlings just trying to flee to safety. He has been willing to kill since day 1. This is completely within his character. Dood is just crazy now."

no, they wouldn't because unlike dany doing what she did, which, again, we all knew was coming, this would be a crazy out of nowhere move

Judas did admit he went and read spoilers for next week, so maybe this is what happens and he's just trying to let us know now.

After he kills Sansa does Dany make him kill himself too? I mean he'd do it cuz he's loyal and she's his queen, obviously.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby snoodmonger » Tue May 14, 2019 8:24 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:I'll have you guys know that a poster that I shall refuse to name PM'd me and said that he thinks that you writer apologists are a bunch of pathetic bags of suckage. Paraphrasing. :stickman:


ya boy should step up and own his opinion.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby Chocolate Milk » Tue May 14, 2019 8:25 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
snoodmonger wrote:I honestly think Dany's "heel turn" feels rushed because two episodes ago she was a key player in saving the world. The show treated her as a "good guy," even putting her trapped outside Winterfell in a dire situation to make viewers go, "Oh no! Dany's in trouble!"

It's a tough to expect viewers, two episodes later, to comfortably be like, "That's one crazy mf'er. She gotta DIE."

And yes, I understand that this aspect of Dany has been seeded a lot, so it can certainly be justified. But justified and earned are two very different things, and for a lot of viewers, asking them to hate Dany now doesn't feel earned. We've more or less rooted for her for 7 (or whatever) seasons. She and her armies are the only reason westeros isn't all blue-eyed now. Now viewers have to do a 180 on her. I'm not super bothered by it personally, but it does feel rushed, even with all the set-up that's been done.

I very much wonder if this season might have been better served by having more, shorter episodes. It might not have felt like giant series-long arcs were being neatly tied on an episode by episode basis.

Dany was not some unequivocal "good guy" at this point. If people really still felt that... I don't know.

It's because the people she was brutalizing were slavers for the most part, so it felt like justice. But crucifying 150 people and burning people alive is still horrific, no matter who is doing it. Her insane father was famous for his love of burning people alive, and she clearly has a love for it as well. She could imprison people, behead them, hang them, but she burns them alive and she started doing it in season 1. Inflicting particularly cruel punishment on people is more acceptable when they are comically evil like slavers, but she applies that same approach almost immediately in Westeros when she burned the Tarly's alive because they didn't kneel. That scene was disturbing and it didn't happen this season.

There is a fine line between hitting people over the head with things and setting them up in a way that is both surprising yet supported by the story. I think they've done a good job of it. I don't begrudge people who think it felt a little rushed but the people who are like "BaD wRiTiNg" I'm not really sure what show they have been watching.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Tue May 14, 2019 8:25 pm

snoodmonger wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:I'll have you guys know that a poster that I shall refuse to name PM'd me and said that he thinks that you writer apologists are a bunch of pathetic bags of suckage. Paraphrasing. :stickman:


ya boy should step up and own his opinion.

A boy is no one.
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