♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:57 pm

Also:

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BAD TOUCH SOLO.
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby jersey cubs fan » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:13 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:Also:

Image

BAD TOUCH SOLO.

More like handsy solo
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby mul21 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:01 pm

Watched Spaceballs last night with my girlfriend and our kids (10, 9, and 8) and they loved it. On another note, my daughter asked if we could watch some Star Wars today (and why not, it's cold and damp and horsefeathers outside) and then proceeded to tell me she likes the original 3 movies better than any of the sequels. I was both surprised and proud of her decision making.
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby Derwood » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:23 am

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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby Banedon » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:40 pm

The new Star Wars animated series is going to be set pre-TFA.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/star-wars-resis ... 1825546331
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby Geech » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:08 am

So, I recently re-watched The Force Awakens after more than two years. The last time I saw it was in the theaters back in December, 2015. It seems like there's been a bit of a sea change in regards to opinions about this film during that time frame. When it came out it seemed like people like it pretty well, but at some point a lot of people started to dislike the film. I gotta say, after watching it again on the small screen I still like it quite a bit. It's got flaws, but it's still a fun, well-paced film with like-able characters buoyed by charismatic actors.

Although I haven't seen The Last Jedi again yet, re-watching TFA really congealed my sense that TLJ didn't give me what I wanted in a sequel. For one thing, too many interesting bits from TFA received virtually no development. Who was Snoke and how did he corrupt Ben Solo? Who are the Knights of Ren and what role do they play in the First Order? Why did the Skywalker lightsaber call to Rey? This stuff didn't even get a few lines of dialog. Additionally, the pacing of TLJ was much worse than TFA. The Force Awakens left me feeling pumped and wanting to know what happened next, while TLJ felt long and had a strange sense of finality to it at the end. I don't think I dislike TLJ, but I think it does feel like a bit of a let-down.

Anyone else re-watched TFA recently? How does it hold up for you?
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby jersey cubs fan » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:18 am

The weirdo fanboys hated it immediately and haven't changed. Normal people appreciated it
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby Derwood » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:28 am

TFA is good and fun, I haven't rewatched TLJ since seeing it in the theater, though I believe my opinion was that it was just ok until the third act
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:34 am

Geech wrote:Who was Snoke


The evil Supreme Leader of the First Order.

and how did he corrupt Ben Solo?


The Force.

Who are the Knights of Ren


Corrupted Jedi who helped Kylo destroy Luke's Jedi Temple.

and what role do they play in the First Order?


Maybe something; maybe nothing. There's still a whole other movie to come, and given that Kylo is now the Supreme Leader it seems very likely we'll learn more about them.

Why did the Skywalker lightsaber call to Rey?


The Force.

Anyone else re-watched TFA recently? How does it hold up for you?


Love it. It and TLJ are great to watch back to back; it's the only of the main saga films to not have a huge time jump between them, so it's pretty fun how well they fit together.
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby Geech » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:48 am

Sammy Sofa wrote:The evil Supreme Leader of the First Order.
The Force.
Corrupted Jedi who helped Kylo destroy Luke's Jedi Temple.
Maybe something; maybe nothing. There's still a whole other movie to come, and given that Kylo is now the Supreme Leader it seems very likely we'll learn more about them.
The Force.


This is a great illustration of my point. The only one of these that's actually an answer to my question is the the Knights of Ren, and I don't believe that particular detail was mentioned in the films. Is that supposition or something from a source outside the films?

I'm a bit surprised to hear that you think they fit so well together, but maybe I'll find that I'm wrong once I re-watch it.
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby jersey cubs fan » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:50 am

Geech wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:The evil Supreme Leader of the First Order.
The Force.
Corrupted Jedi who helped Kylo destroy Luke's Jedi Temple.
Maybe something; maybe nothing. There's still a whole other movie to come, and given that Kylo is now the Supreme Leader it seems very likely we'll learn more about them.
The Force.



This is a great illustration of my point. The only one of these that's actually an answer to my question is the the Knights of Ren, and I don't believe that particular detail was mentioned in the films. Is that supposition or something from a source outside the films?

I'm a bit surprised to hear that you think they fit so well together, but maybe I'll find that I'm wrong once I re-watch it.
Why do you need every characters back story?
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:03 am

I'm not sure how those weren't answers; when Jedi horsefeathers happens in SW it's a pretty safe bet it's because of the Force.

And Snoke is just the mysterious powerful bad guy who ran the First Order much like the Emperor was just the mysterious powerful bad guy who ran the Empire. They decided to tell the Emperor's story eventually and it was....not good. Campy Big Bads like that definitely work better, IMO, with a Jaws-like, "less is more" approach. You start explaining who they are and where they came from and they start losing the mystique that makes them seem so threatening.

Look at it this way: if Snoke's story was the one being told, then that's what the movie should be about, but the story's not about him. It's like watching LotR and wishing it spent less time with the main characters and more time fleshing out Sauron. Personally I find characters like Kylo and Rey much more interesting than Snoke, and would rather the movies stick with them.

I'm a bit surprised to hear that you think they fit so well together


I mean, TLJ starts at the very same base we just the Rebels at at the end of the last film right after the Starkiller battle, and it also picks up exactly where TFA left off with Rey and Luke.
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby 17 Seconds » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:04 am

if you like star wars but complain that any of the 3 new ones suck, there's like a 99% chance you're a straight white guy who rages about everything
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:53 am

When TLJ came out, a number of folks pointed out(some of them excitedly!) how the movie ignored plot points/unanswered questions that were definitely introduced/played up in TFA. Doesn’t make either of them bad movies, but while I haven’t personally done it I am a bit confused by the idea that they are especially great to watch back to back because of this.
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby jersey cubs fan » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:16 am

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:When TLJ came out, a number of folks pointed out(some of them excitedly!) how the movie ignored plot points/unanswered questions that were definitely introduced/played up in TFA. Doesn’t make either of them bad movies, but while I haven’t personally done it I am a bit confused by the idea that they are especially great to watch back to back because of this.
they ignore plot points that nerds obsessed over, but not like, the plot.
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:07 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:When TLJ came out, a number of folks pointed out(some of them excitedly!) how the movie ignored plot points/unanswered questions that were definitely introduced/played up in TFA.


Nope. It "answers"/addresses/moves forward all of the key stuff from TFA. Some people just didn't like the answers.

Things like Snoke and the Knights of Ren aren't "unanswered questions;" it's pretty obvious what/who they are. What gets conflated with that is the idea that because they're not explored in greater detail (largely unnecessarily) to this point, then it's somehow a "plot hole," or something that was dropped or ignored.

Again, SW used to name drop or give us only fleeting moments of things like the Clone Wars and the Emperor and Boba Fett and on and on and on all the time, primarily as effective world-building and as things for the ACTUAL MAIN CHARACTERS to play off of. We then got an entire trilogy exploring those sorts of things and it sucked hard, largely because they're meant to be little more than set dressing.

Hell, Vader himself is basically this problem personified; the more you see of him and what he can do and who he really is, the less mysterious and threatening he becomes. He's far more effective, IMO, when it was left to us to picture just who Anakin Skywalker was and what kind of awful monster he became. That's why his unmasking in RotJ had the impact it does because it flies in the face of of what most people are going to assume. He's not this big, intimidating father-figure, and he's not some kind of hideous monster or robot; he's just a breaking down husk of a human who was basically keeping himself alive with hate. Making the prequels about him was just one of the many mistakes made; even if they had been well-made films, you're still undercutting the character and what happens to him because there's basically nothing that can be depicted on-screen that could possibly stack up to what we're imagining about who he was and what happened to him. All that really matters and can work is who he is when we're introduced to him in ANH and where he ends up.

I just think these movies work best when we largely know only what we "need" to know:

"Who are the Knights of Ren?!?"

"Looks like some other corrupt Jedi. Based on their name and the glimpse we see of them, they were following Kylo and did some bad horsefeathers with him, namely destroyign the Jedi temple and likely helping Snoke and Kylo come to power. Given what we've seen in these films of how Sith/Dark Jedi treat each other, and that Kylo was willing to kill Snoke when it suited him, it's a decent bet that these guys met a bad end once they had served their purpose and Kylo had become powerful enough."

"BUT WHO ARE THE KNIGHTS OF REN?!?!?!"

"..."

Like, these guys very well could be brought up or even show up in the third film, but if they don't we've been provided with more than enough info over 8 films now to figure out what their deal is. I get people WANTING to see more of them (that's basically the point of using characters like that sparingly), but not seeing or hearing more about them isn't this inherent flaw.
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby TBS Playoffs Insider » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:42 pm

This reminds me of the Westworld podcasts I listen to. These dudes will gripe “we had a whole episode, why are there questions left unresolved????”
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby Geech » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:14 am

jersey cubs fan wrote:Why do you need every characters back story?


That is perhaps a fair question given the way I phrased my paragraph. Obviously we don't need every character's back story, and that's not really my point. The point is that these were prominent, intriguing pieces in The Force Awakens that I wanted to see more of. I don't care necessarily about obtaining a complete back story for all characters, but I did want to see these things further explored in the films.

I think my problem with The Last Jedi is that it had a pattern of not really exploring those interesting elements of the first film. We did get more Snoke, but basically a minimum amount until he was killed off. I think the Knights of Ren were virtually unmentioned outside of someone referring to “Kylo Ren”. Again, I haven't rewatched the film, so it's possible my memory is faulty on some of these details. Please correct me if you know otherwise for sure.

A lot of the choices made are fine in isolation. I'm glad that Rey didn't turn out to be a Skywalker, a Kenobi or a Palpatine (yes, that was a real fan theory I saw). I'm okay with Snoke being abruptly killed to be replaced by Ren as the primary antagonist. However, I think the combined effect of all these elements being dropped or definitively resolved in such an unexpected way is unsatisfying, and it makes the writing feel arbitrary.

It's like Checkhov's Gun. The Force Awakens showed a lot of loaded guns hanging on the wall that didn't get fired in The Last Jedi. I don't think it's unreasonable to feel a bit dissatisfied with writing that discarded so many little bits, or to be left feeling that it wasn't cohesive.
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby Geech » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:15 am

Sammy Sofa wrote:I'm not sure how those weren't answers; when Jedi horsefeathers happens in SW it's a pretty safe bet it's because of the Force.


You answered your own objection. Everyone who watched the film knows that Snoke was the supreme leader. Everyone who watched the film knows that the Force can be a plot device. The answers you gave are shallow responses that don't expand upon the film's mysteries. None of them hints at what captured the imagination of audience members.

You're right that we don't need a detailed back story for Snoke to be an effective villain, but that doesn't mean we don't benefit from seeing further exploration. That's the key message I'm trying to deliver here. In the original trilogy, even though we never get complete histories, we learn a little bit more about Vader and the Emperor in each film and it pays off with a meaningful confrontation at the end of RotJ. In the sequel trilogy, Snoke is a mysterious, powerful figure central to the construction of the world until he's abruptly discarded.

I get your point about world building and I agree that not every element of world building needs to have a payoff, but I don't think that's what I'm asking for. I'm not demanding a complete biography of every Millennium Falcon owner. I'm not demanding a detailed subplot about the Kanjiklub (lol). I want more about characters and events that are either central to the world or prominent in the first film. It would be like if Luke and Obi Wan never even tried to go to Alderaan after receiving Leia's message.

The Knights of Ren were mentioned by name, and shown in Rey's Force vision. They were featured in marketing for The Force Awakens. But The Last Jedi does not even mention them that I recall. If they suddenly re-appear in episode 9 it might be satisfying payoff, or it might only serve to highlight the lack of cohesion in the trilogy. All I want is something about them to give some continuity to the films. I don't think that's unreasonable.
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby Derwood » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:20 am

If TFA and TLJ were the first two films in a movie franchise, then getting what we got from Snoke would be fine. But I think many Star Wars fans were hoping to get a little more history to bridge the gap between ROTJ and TFA. We got some of Kylo/Luke's story, a few hints about Leia/Han's falling out, but zero about the rise of what is essentially Emperor 2.0 (Snoke), which means his death is pretty meaningless. Sure, it means no one is in Kylo's way in commanding the First Order, but since we know nothing about Snoke, we have nothing to compare a Kylo-led First Order to.
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby Brian » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:03 am

They are churning Star Wars content out, I'm sure Snoke's story will be told in some form (and probably won't be that interesting)
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby Geech » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:05 am

Brian wrote:They are churning Star Wars content out, I'm sure Snoke's story will be told in some form (and probably won't be that interesting)


I don't care about Snoke's story. I care that Snoke received no exploration in The Last Jedi. Does that make sense?
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby cl smooth » Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:17 am

I love me some Star Wars but after reading the last 10 or so posts on this thread, all I have to say is...

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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby Sammy Sofa » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:39 pm

Geech wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:Why do you need every characters back story?


That is perhaps a fair question given the way I phrased my paragraph. Obviously we don't need every character's back story, and that's not really my point. The point is that these were prominent, intriguing pieces in The Force Awakens that I wanted to see more of. I don't care necessarily about obtaining a complete back story for all characters, but I did want to see these things further explored in the films.


But that's just your list; you left off a laundry list of other aspects from TFA that other people have brought up as something they would have liked to have seen expanded on or explored more in TLJ. That's the double-edged sword of these films; you're promising people 3 films in the story, and you want to build an intergalactic setting that feels varied and vibrant and alive, but at times if you do that TOO well people glom onto things that ultimately don't need to be bigger than what they end up being. It's not that it's a bad thing for people to want to see more of these side aspects they get hooked on, but too often it goes from being, "this is something I would like to see more of," to, "this is something we NEED to see more of or else something has gone wrong."

I think my problem with The Last Jedi is that it had a pattern of not really exploring those interesting elements of the first film. We did get more Snoke, but basically a minimum amount until he was killed off. I think the Knights of Ren were virtually unmentioned outside of someone referring to “Kylo Ren”. Again, I haven't rewatched the film, so it's possible my memory is faulty on some of these details. Please correct me if you know otherwise for sure.


I guess it's just not clear what you wanted or expected more out of Snoke; we found out what his objective was (using Rey to find Luke so Snoke could kill him), and he was dispatched when it was time to push a far more interesting character forward. And the Knights of Ren thing not being that important was established in the same movie they were revealed since they are never mentioned again in TFA outside of that one moment. If they're supposed to be important or even around by the time we're seeing in the movie, then how come they only merit that single passing mention/shot?

Look at it this way: these movies are already pretty stuffed with characters already, and there's only 3 movies. They need to fit in both the classic main characters and the new main characters. If you make the Knights of Ren a thing besides "your father fought in the Clone Wars"-style world building, you know essentially have 5 other Kylo Rens running around. That's just too much of something that's ultimately just a variation of the same thing. The best you could do is have them hanging around as nameless, faceless enforcer-types so as to not detract from the characters who actually matter, though then the catch-22 is likely even just more of people wondering who they are and what their deal is. There's basically no room to make them actual characters, and, IMO, the movies would have been better off not having introduced them in the first place.

The only idea I've seen suggested that I think could have worked is if a line or two had been tossed in that the KoR ended up as those red-armored bodyguards for Snoke. Heck, if someone wants to assume that's who they are, go nuts; there's nothing in the movies to contradict that.

A lot of the choices made are fine in isolation. I'm glad that Rey didn't turn out to be a Skywalker, a Kenobi or a Palpatine (yes, that was a real fan theory I saw). I'm okay with Snoke being abruptly killed to be replaced by Ren as the primary antagonist. However, I think the combined effect of all these elements being dropped or definitively resolved in such an unexpected way is unsatisfying, and it makes the writing feel arbitrary.

It's like Checkhov's Gun. The Force Awakens showed a lot of loaded guns hanging on the wall that didn't get fired in The Last Jedi. I don't think it's unreasonable to feel a bit dissatisfied with writing that discarded so many little bits, or to be left feeling that it wasn't cohesive.


Honestly, it reads like more like you just weren't a fan of how these stories were told in TLJ as opposed to anything actually being "dropped." And, hey, that's fine! We're not all going to like the same thing, and we all have our own ideas as to how we'd want or wish these movies to go. But "Checkhov's Gun" is one of those things that gets tossed out a lot in a pretty liberal way; it's not a storytelling idea where everything introduced HAS to play out in a hugely dramatic, impactful way; it's saying that everything introduced should all "fit" together, and that can happen in a variety ways. But it's not as simplistic as, "something is introduced or mentioned in Act X, so it HAS to be a big deal later in Act Z." And, again, we're talking about 2 movies in a trilogy, so to say that things have been "dropped" or "ignored" for sure at this point is definitely jumping the gun. IMO, both movies work on their own and both work as consecutive parts of a larger story.
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Re: ♫ Star Wars, nothing but...Star Wars! ♫

Postby Sammy Sofa » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:48 pm

Derwood wrote:If TFA and TLJ were the first two films in a movie franchise, then getting what we got from Snoke would be fine. But I think many Star Wars fans were hoping to get a little more history to bridge the gap between ROTJ and TFA. We got some of Kylo/Luke's story, a few hints about Leia/Han's falling out, but zero about the rise of what is essentially Emperor 2.0 (Snoke), which means his death is pretty meaningless. Sure, it means no one is in Kylo's way in commanding the First Order, but since we know nothing about Snoke, we have nothing to compare a Kylo-led First Order to.


Again, I really don't get what you and Geech want with Snoke; you're both saying, "no, I don't want a ton of backstory about him...but I wanted some backstory." Why would knowing the details of how he came to power make him or his death having any more meaning? He's supposed to be threatening and powerful, and he's clearly both, and his death serves to put a character like Kylo, who we haven't really had before in SW, into a position we've never seen a character like that end up in. An of course we we know what the FO looks like before Kylo took over; we've got 2 movies of it.

Like, what could you have possibly found out about a character, who pretty much only exists to be Emperor 2.0? There was presumably a power vacuum after RotJ, so when a similar figure to the Emperor showed up he was able to unite the remaining Imperial forces. I really don't understand why it's acted like how Snoke came to power must be some kind of mystery just because it's this really obvious thing that wasn't spelled out for us. I mean, use the fact that we don't know much about the character besides the necessary beats to build up the characters who actually matter to make up whatever you want about him. The movie doesn't have to hold your hand for the character to work; if you want him to have some insane backstory, give him an insane backstory.
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