2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby David » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:42 pm

Bobson Dugnutt wrote:
were jimmy and rose ever elite at the same time though? legitimately asking. rose hasn't been peak rose for a long time now.


they definitely weren't.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby davell » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:43 pm

Bobson Dugnutt wrote:
davell wrote:
David wrote:I really do not accept "chicago won't ever attract the elite free agent because they have failed to and come in 2nd like 3 times" as a real premise.

lebron could've easily happened. kobe almost happened and even tried to force his way here. mcgrady could've easily happened. melo could've easily happened (thank god it didn't).

they won't until they do. all you can do is put an attractive roster together and throw a max offer out. hitting on a top draft pick as a superstar isn't some slam dunk either.


Eh, sure, it CAN happen.....But, you've got a horrible rep to deal with currently. Trading Jimmy hurts you somewhat too. You've got guys pairing up for super teams. That hurts. You've got a young roster that isn't attractive for immediate contention if you're getting a single guy.(at least for THIS upcoming year) And you've still got GarPax running the show. Who couldn't close when they had 2 guys who were elite at the time, to add around.

Might not be 100% impossible, but the odds definitively aren't good. They ARE increasee with the addition of another elite youngster though.


were jimmy and rose ever elite at the same time though? legitimately asking. rose hasn't been peak rose for a long time now.

i think if enough of these guys continue to show promise the order is: try to package a few of them and picks for star #1, and hopefully that star is enough to attract star #2 via free agency.


I was meaning Noah. Maybe using "elite" was too strong of a word with him. But, he was a great second piece, for trying to lure LeBron and Co.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby Bobson Dugnutt » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:51 pm

davell wrote:
Bobson Dugnutt wrote:
davell wrote:
Eh, sure, it CAN happen.....But, you've got a horrible rep to deal with currently. Trading Jimmy hurts you somewhat too. You've got guys pairing up for super teams. That hurts. You've got a young roster that isn't attractive for immediate contention if you're getting a single guy.(at least for THIS upcoming year) And you've still got GarPax running the show. Who couldn't close when they had 2 guys who were elite at the time, to add around.

Might not be 100% impossible, but the odds definitively aren't good. They ARE increasee with the addition of another elite youngster though.


were jimmy and rose ever elite at the same time though? legitimately asking. rose hasn't been peak rose for a long time now.

i think if enough of these guys continue to show promise the order is: try to package a few of them and picks for star #1, and hopefully that star is enough to attract star #2 via free agency.


I was meaning Noah. Maybe using "elite" was too strong of a word with him. But, he was a great second piece, for trying to lure LeBron and Co.


ah, ok. yeah, even his peak--when he was making all-star teams, winning DPOY, and had the offense kind of running through him--was after rose fell off. he was certainly an attractive piece when lebron and co. were out there, but yeah, 2 elite guys is probably overstating it a bit.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby davell » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:56 pm

Honestly, I'm just glad the Bulls are even worth discussing on some level this year.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:36 pm

I'm okay accepting the fact that the Bulls won't get an elite FA in the sense that only 10% of the league's teams have attracted a turly elite FA in the past 10 years, so the odds are just naturally small, but whatever that next teir of teams is, the Bulls are there in FA and they'll have money. The biggest hangup will be their own standards probably (i.e. I could totally see them passing on Cousins for dumb reasons)

Any line of argument which starts at the Bulls just naturally starting at some big disadvantage in FA with respect to the rest of the league is wrong and dumb.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:44 pm

davell wrote:If you try and project who we can deal, it comes down to Grant, Holiday, Lopez, and Jimi for me. You're not exactly getting a ransom for any of that group obviously.


Is Jimi a Niko autocorrect? Because none of those other guys is really driving these wins. I mean at best they are ensuring really bad players don't see the floor, but I'm not entirely convinced some of those bad players wouldn't look better on this current iteration of the team.

Niko is kind of the big question though. You either don't think he factors into future plans at all and want to try and salvage the tank, or figure this was kind of the potential that was always there and he either fits in a future rotation or at worst is more attractive as a trade piece for a star than as a trade piece in a dump.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby David » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:47 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
davell wrote:If you try and project who we can deal, it comes down to Grant, Holiday, Lopez, and Jimi for me. You're not exactly getting a ransom for any of that group obviously.


Is Jimi a Niko autocorrect? Because none of those other guys is really driving these wins. I mean at best they are ensuring really bad players don't see the floor, but I'm not entirely convinced some of those bad players wouldn't look better on this current iteration of the team.

Niko is kind of the big question though. You either don't think he factors into future plans at all and want to try and salvage the tank, or figure this was kind of the potential that was always there and he either fits in a future rotation or at worst is more attractive as a trade piece for a star than as a trade piece in a dump.


yeah, i'm really conflicted with the niko thing. he's not THIS (23 PER) good but it would be really annoying if this is a true breakout and we're shipping him off.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby davell » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:58 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
davell wrote:If you try and project who we can deal, it comes down to Grant, Holiday, Lopez, and Jimi for me. You're not exactly getting a ransom for any of that group obviously.


Is Jimi a Niko autocorrect? Because none of those other guys is really driving these wins. I mean at best they are ensuring really bad players don't see the floor, but I'm not entirely convinced some of those bad players wouldn't look better on this current iteration of the team.

Niko is kind of the big question though. You either don't think he factors into future plans at all and want to try and salvage the tank, or figure this was kind of the potential that was always there and he either fits in a future rotation or at worst is more attractive as a trade piece for a star than as a trade piece in a dump.


Yeah, it was Niko.

Those guys aren't bringing much back on their own. But, its possible to get a young guy that's not performed yet, or a pick attached to a bad contract, or possibly even a package of 2 of that group, not including Niko, that conceivably brings back a super heavily protected 1st or something of use in the future.

Grants a decent backup PG. There's teams in need there. Holiday could be a decent scorer on a bench for a team in need. Lopez is a solid enough big guy. An injury could put him in demand possibly.

I don't trade any of them just to trade them. If you get a 2nd for Grant or Holiday, depending on where its at, I'd move them. Or a youngster. I could be convinced to move Lopez for an expiring. Its not ideal, but its freeing up time for Lauri and Portis. Niko too, if he's not dealt.

He's the wild card though. I don't move him unless you get a 1st or a relatively good prospect in return. The NYP had a blurb about Hernangomez for him. To me, I'd be tempted, but think you could possibly get a future 1st or heavily protected one this year, in a deal for him with the Knicks.

Again, I figure the main value of that group is probably sending multiples for a bad contract, plus stuff.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:59 pm

David wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:
davell wrote:If you try and project who we can deal, it comes down to Grant, Holiday, Lopez, and Jimi for me. You're not exactly getting a ransom for any of that group obviously.


Is Jimi a Niko autocorrect? Because none of those other guys is really driving these wins. I mean at best they are ensuring really bad players don't see the floor, but I'm not entirely convinced some of those bad players wouldn't look better on this current iteration of the team.

Niko is kind of the big question though. You either don't think he factors into future plans at all and want to try and salvage the tank, or figure this was kind of the potential that was always there and he either fits in a future rotation or at worst is more attractive as a trade piece for a star than as a trade piece in a dump.


yeah, i'm really conflicted with the niko thing. he's not THIS (23 PER) good but it would be really annoying if this is a true breakout and we're shipping him off.

If he can be ~18 per player, him + expiring Rolo seems like a decent start to any consolidation trade package. If he somehow is a 20 per player, he finally reached his potential. If he's still a 14 per player, I'm not sure the lost opportunity cost ends up being that dramatic (mainly because we may start losing again then).
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby davell » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:01 pm

I have no idea what Niko is at this point. I'm definitely not dealing him for an expiring. Either get value or hold him. If he regresses, he's still got value as a one year guy or as a guy you can release, for a bad contract after the season to teams.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby davell » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:06 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:I'm okay accepting the fact that the Bulls won't get an elite FA in the sense that only 10% of the league's teams have attracted a turly elite FA in the past 10 years, so the odds are just naturally small, but whatever that next teir of teams is, the Bulls are there in FA and they'll have money. The biggest hangup will be their own standards probably (i.e. I could totally see them passing on Cousins for dumb reasons)

Any line of argument which starts at the Bulls just naturally starting at some big disadvantage in FA with respect to the rest of the league is wrong and dumb.


By the way, its not in respect to the rest of the league. Its the 10% you mentioned. Plus, the pairing up of guys. Plus, the rep that may or may not actually be a factor. Just don't see us pulling the elite. And grabbing the Boozer type isn't going to do anything but put us back where we were.

We ARE in a position to try and grab an RFA though. Haven't looked closely at who all is there, but structuring a deal for one of them could be interesting. Canela or Hood maybe? Not sure who else is out there, other than Jabari.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:14 pm

davell wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:I'm okay accepting the fact that the Bulls won't get an elite FA in the sense that only 10% of the league's teams have attracted a turly elite FA in the past 10 years, so the odds are just naturally small, but whatever that next teir of teams is, the Bulls are there in FA and they'll have money. The biggest hangup will be their own standards probably (i.e. I could totally see them passing on Cousins for dumb reasons)

Any line of argument which starts at the Bulls just naturally starting at some big disadvantage in FA with respect to the rest of the league is wrong and dumb.


By the way, its not in respect to the rest of the league. Its the 10% you mentioned. Plus, the pairing up of guys. Plus, the rep that may or may not actually be a factor. Just don't see us pulling the elite. And grabbing the Boozer type isn't going to do anything but put us back where we were.

We ARE in a position to try and grab an RFA though. Haven't looked closely at who all is there, but structuring a deal for one of them could be interesting. Canela or Hood maybe? Not sure who else is out there, other than Jabari.

But there's not anything inherently special about that 10%. One of those is already back to being nothing, another very well be back to not being special soon, and the other was already the best regular season team ever before attracting an elite FA. You are special until you aren't and vice versa.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby David » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:19 pm

Well, then...

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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:23 pm

David wrote:Well, then...


Do any contenders have a mid first rounder cuz he's not waiving his no trade for a bottom fringe playoff team.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby squally1313 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:13 am

Based on a RealGM site...

Cleveland owns Brooklyn's 2018 first rounder, but that's probably going to be too good of a pick for someone like Niko. Nothing else really stands out.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby SouthSideRyan » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:53 am

TBS Playoffs Insider wrote:Are you guys really trying to talk yourself into a first round exit and a mid-first rounder instead of one of the 5 studs at the top of the draft


This has been more enjoyable than the Playoff flameouts. I don’t even have to do anything
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby bukie » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:45 am

Dunn out tonight with a phantom knee injury, still might not be enough to lose to Indy.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby bukie » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:54 am

As stupid as it would be for the Bulls to somehow sneak into the 8 seed again this year, it would be hilariously fun to watch and would serve the front office right.

Unfortunately there is no option available that would clean out the front office. Lose and it's expected, win and it makes them somehow look better. Maybe the best scenario for cleaning house is ending up with the 12th spot in the lottery or something.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:57 am

bukie wrote:As stupid as it would be for the Bulls to somehow sneak into the 8 seed again this year, it would be hilariously fun to watch and would serve the front office right.

Unfortunately there is no option available that would clean out the front office. Lose and it's expected, win and it makes them somehow look better. Maybe the best scenario for cleaning house is ending up with the 12th spot in the lottery or something.

FO isn't going anywhere regardless.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby UMFan83 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:08 am

Honestly this is one of the weirder things I’ve seen in sports. Yes I figured they were better than a 3-20 team but they went from that to nearly unbeatable. Never thought the Bulls could win 10 of 12 this season.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby davell » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:15 am

SSR and IMB are right, the Bulls can't even tank right. But, you can't expect to have Dunn and Lauri progress AND to finish bottom 5. Its kind of an either/or.

But, trade Niko and at least let's see how close to 5 we can get.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby davell » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:17 am

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
David wrote:Well, then...


Do any contenders have a mid first rounder cuz he's not waiving his no trade for a bottom fringe playoff team.


Just the NJ pick, as mentioned. Don't see Cleveland giving that up for Niko. My guess is we'd trade him for a late first, with a decent youngster attached. Or more, if you take on a bad contract.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby davell » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:28 am

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
David wrote:Well, then...


Do any contenders have a mid first rounder cuz he's not waiving his no trade for a bottom fringe playoff team.


And in a bit of excellent news, just saw a KC article that says Niko ONLY has veto power if we don't pick up the second year option. We can pick it up at any point and he can't do anything.

So, I guess we market him both as an expiring and as a guy with an extra year and see which nets us the best offer.
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby SpongeWorthy » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:07 am

ILOVEMARKKANEN
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Re: 2017-18 Bulls Thread - Fly the Tank W

Postby bcl412 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:23 am

What we have is a potentially strong core that could be built around instead of one high potential player with a bare cupboard. If this team keeps trending in a winning direction I enjoy it. If I had more confidence in the front office I really think we could be building towards something good. I don’t know, maybe it’s meatbally or something but I do think building a winning mentality or whatever matters and as a competitive person I find it hard to root for losses. There’s likely some value to winning over losing on purpose
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