Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby UMFan83 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:44 pm



Woj goes on to say that they are likely to find roles for both Gar and Pax to stay on but the new GM has full authority.

I'm sorry but you don't have "full authority" if Pax is in an advisory role. Sure you can make that move that Pax advises against, but whats going to stop him from crying to his daddy Jerry Reinsdorf that the new guy isn't listening to him? Getting any legitimately big name candidate should be very difficult based on this alone.

My guess is that whoever they hire is or becomes a Pax stooge and nothing changes. They are just making this move to appease the fans.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby Regular Show » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:00 pm

UMFan83 wrote:https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1246127222966161411

Woj goes on to say that they are likely to find roles for both Gar and Pax to stay on but the new GM has full authority.

I'm sorry but you don't have "full authority" if Pax is in an advisory role. Sure you can make that move that Pax advises against, but whats going to stop him from crying to his daddy Jerry Reinsdorf that the new guy isn't listening to him? Getting any legitimately big name candidate should be very difficult based on this alone.

My guess is that whoever they hire is or becomes a Pax stooge and nothing changes. They are just making this move to appease the fans.


I'm not quite as jaded as you are. I think this new hire will legitimately be empowered to do whatever they want...

I agree and wonder why keep Paxson around? Or Forman? It will be a little bit of an impediment to hiring top-tier talent, but Chicago is one of the best cities in the world. We have a great fanbase and a decent roster. It's not an amazing roster by any stretch, but it's not barren or devoid of talent.

We'll see what happens, but Paxson might just end up like Ken Williams with the White Sox -- I mean who really knows what he does now? From everything I've heard and read, Rick Hahn makes all the key decisions now. For Paxson, it's a cushy salary with no job requirement or expectations. It looks better than being fired or let go. No more embarrassing radio appearances getting asked tough questions.

I think this is good news, but it really depends on who they hire and exactly how much power and autonomy they have.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby Regular Show » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:03 pm



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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby SpongeWorthy » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:07 pm

Regular Show wrote:
UMFan83 wrote:https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1246127222966161411

Woj goes on to say that they are likely to find roles for both Gar and Pax to stay on but the new GM has full authority.

I'm sorry but you don't have "full authority" if Pax is in an advisory role. Sure you can make that move that Pax advises against, but whats going to stop him from crying to his daddy Jerry Reinsdorf that the new guy isn't listening to him? Getting any legitimately big name candidate should be very difficult based on this alone.

My guess is that whoever they hire is or becomes a Pax stooge and nothing changes. They are just making this move to appease the fans.


I'm not quite as jaded as you are. I think this new hire will legitimately be empowered to do whatever they want...

I agree and wonder why keep Paxson around? Or Forman? It will be a little bit of an impediment to hiring top-tier talent, but Chicago is one of the best cities in the world. We have a great fanbase and a decent roster. It's not an amazing roster by any stretch, but it's not barren or devoid of talent.

We'll see what happens, but Paxson might just end up like Ken Williams with the White Sox -- I mean who really knows what he does now? From everything I've heard and read, Rick Hahn makes all the key decisions now. For Paxson, it's a cushy salary with no job requirement or expectations. It looks better than being fired or let go. No more embarrassing radio appearances getting asked tough questions.

I think this is good news, but it really depends on who they hire and exactly how much power and autonomy they have.

If they get someone of the caliber mentioned in the Woj piece I wouldn’t be worried about GarPax being figureheads. Those are legit names.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:14 pm

UMFan83 wrote:https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1246127222966161411

Woj goes on to say that they are likely to find roles for both Gar and Pax to stay on but the new GM has full authority.

I'm sorry but you don't have "full authority" if Pax is in an advisory role. Sure you can make that move that Pax advises against, but whats going to stop him from crying to his daddy Jerry Reinsdorf that the new guy isn't listening to him? Getting any legitimately big name candidate should be very difficult based on this alone.

My guess is that whoever they hire is or becomes a Pax stooge and nothing changes. They are just making this move to appease the fans.

There have been several reports that Pax has been the one pushing to revamp the entire FO structure. He already tried to walk away like 10 years ago and went with the "hire a stooge" role. It didn't work and he ended back up in the main role. I'm somewhat hopeful he's learned that if he goes outside the org and supports a wider FO reorganization he can actually retire to a cushy advisory role where he'll help the Reinsdorfs evaluate the new guy and that's it. And let's be honest 95% of that evaluation will be "how much playoff ticket revenue did we get?"

If they're serious about the revamp, I think in the next 12-18 months they need at a minimum:
A executive VP of basketball ops
A general manager
An assistant General Manager /head of analytics and scouting
A handful of new scouts and analysts
(obviously a new head coach)

That would put them on par with most modern NBA FOs. And with that many new elevated hired it would quell concerns Pax or Collins insert themselves in day to day decisions. They might help lay out a vision, like a mission statement, but that carries little weight.

The only part I find really annoying is Gar sticking around, even though it's supposedly just a scouting role. Wish he'd take the hint and just move on on his own if they won't just fire him.

If they want to go really big, they need a new president of all operations ala like the when the Blackhawks brought in McDonough and just let someone build the entire org, but I suspect theyre happy with the non basketball ops side of things.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby UMFan83 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:30 pm

Good points from everyone. I guess the first test of whether the new person is a GarPax stooge is how long Boylen is allowed to remain head coach.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:37 pm

UMFan83 wrote:Good points from everyone. I guess the first test of whether the new person is a GarPax stooge is how long Boylen is allowed to remain head coach.

I mean that article surprisingly said this FO hire could occur before play resumes again, which might be this summer? In a dream world, could Boylen have coached his last game?
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby 17 Seconds » Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:14 am

getting rid of gar and pax is going to be like the opposite of how it feels when we lose theo after next season (yes he is still the one after all these years)
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby David » Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:28 am

UMFan83 wrote:https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1246127222966161411

Woj goes on to say that they are likely to find roles for both Gar and Pax to stay on but the new GM has full authority.

I'm sorry but you don't have "full authority" if Pax is in an advisory role. Sure you can make that move that Pax advises against, but whats going to stop him from crying to his daddy Jerry Reinsdorf that the new guy isn't listening to him? Getting any legitimately big name candidate should be very difficult based on this alone.

My guess is that whoever they hire is or becomes a Pax stooge and nothing changes. They are just making this move to appease the fans.


i really don't see it that way at all. i don't see pax as a kenny williams type and i think keeping pax formally employed and not firing him is about reinsdorf's love/loyalty for him. i don't think pax even really wants to be in charge anymore.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:23 pm

So I was initially optimistic on these reports, but some reports say they are particularly interested in the Heat as a model for the FO reorganization. In which case, pessimism time:

1. Does Pax see himself as the Riley? (rofl if so)
2. Simon (the Heat guy) seems lower on the chain than some of the other candidates, he is currently an assistant GM, whereas other guys are GMs. So does Pax just see this hire as trying to recreate what he initially had with Gar, Pax as still the main visionary/architect but just a primary day to day manager to lead that vision?
3. This last point isn't too worrisome in a vacuum but combined with the Bulls attitude: the Heat operate as a pretty loyal and insular organization. They've had basically two coaches in 25 years (save a short Van Gundy stint) and when Riley stepped away from coaching the second time he hired a guy who was widely viewed as an organization yes-man. Look at the bios of the rest of their senior staff, a lot of 20+ year Heat lifers. I worry the Bulls don't see a need for a wider overhaul, but maybe just a new GM and maybe one or two new hires. I don't know the appeal of organizational stability, but in the Bulls case, they need some turnover and more drastic turnover.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby David » Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:34 pm

realgm seems to really like the webster guy woj brought up from toronto.

also


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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby David » Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:53 pm

Hopefully an Athletic snippet is OK.



Bobby Webster, Toronto Raptors general manager
Now is a good time to read Dan Robson’s tremendous profile of Webster if you haven’t already. It paints the picture of the exact type of new blood the Bulls need to bring in to resurrect this listless franchise; someone bright and bold, determined and diligent.

Webster, 35, began his career as an intern with the Orlando Magic. He joined the NBA’s legal office in New York in 2006 and helped craft the NBA’s current collective bargaining agreement during the 2011 lockout. In part because of that experience, Webster has what has been described as an “encyclopedic knowledge” of the salary cap. In recent years, the Bulls have awarded large contracts to the likes of Cristiano Felicio, an end-of-the-line Dwyane Wade and Jabari Parker, while taking on a substantial one in the Otto Porter Jr. trade. They certainly could use Webster.

Ujiri made Webster his first hire with the Raptors in 2013. He started as the VP of basketball management and strategy before quickly getting promoted to assistant GM and then GM. Webster has been credited for helping Toronto identify undrafted point guard Fred VanVleet, draft Pascal Siakam and captaining early trade discussions between the Raptors and Spurs for Kawhi Leonard.

In Robson’s profile, Webster is referred to by a player agent as “the driving force” behind the Raptors, although Robson makes it clear Webster would bristle at such a description.

“Bobby is making a lot of the decisions in terms of everything they do,” one agent was quoted as saying in Robson’s profile.

Ujiri was quoted in the same piece as saying Webster will lead a team “at some point.”

“Hopefully he doesn’t overthrow me,” Ujiri said.

Bulls fans have reason to believe the fast-rising Webster would consider coming aboard. He is a Hawaii native, but his father, Bob, is an engineer and Bulls fan from Chicago. The younger Webster grew up a Bulls and Cubs fan.


Here's a link to that profile for anyone who has a sub

https://theathletic.com/1436139/#click= ... INsV2Uwlre
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby We Got The Whole 9 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:30 pm

I like the Raptors guy a lot. I also would love it if they grabbed the guy from Denver. They didn't completely luck out on Jokic at 41; they saw a player with the size of a center but who could handle the ball like a guard. His agent tried pulling him from the draft but Denver guaranteed they would take him in the 2nd so he acquiesced.

They built a legit Western contender with only 1 top 10 pick and no major FA signings, getting rotation contributors consistently in the 2nd round.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby Regular Show » Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:40 pm

It's early, but Bobby Webster is easily my favorite candidate so far. That article in The Athletic is excellent, and the background and fit and youth just makes too much sense. He'd be a great hire and seems like the complete opposite of GarPax.

I also like Arturas Karnisovas. I was watching some clips of him from his playing days in Europe and he reminded me of Toni Kukoc. Great shooter. He was a GM candidate for both the Brooklyn Nets and Milwaukee Bucks. He was a key part of the Paul Millsap signing. I think he's done a great job as the GM in Denver.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:47 pm

Agree I like the profile of both those guys. Not as crazy on Simon.

Hopefully these guys have the budget to build a team around them too. Don't want one of these guys stuck with like, Jim Paxson as their number 2.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby Regular Show » Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:08 pm



I believe they're going to start conducting interviews (online) this week. I think Bobby Webster is the leading candidate and has a lot of positive momentum.

Not upset about Chad Buchanan declining this opportunity. It's a bad look for the organization, though.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:51 pm

Hollinger has reported that Buchanan and Simon were the two guys he heard the most buzz about.

That and with the reports that the Bulls were most interested in the Heat as a FO model makes me think it's Simon's job to lose. And that worries me for issues I highlighted earlier. But I don't think we'll know for 12+ months how intense this FO reorg actually is either way.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby David » Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:54 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:Hollinger has reported that Buchanan and Simon were the two guys he heard the most buzz about.

That and with the reports that the Bulls were most interested in the Heat as a FO model makes me think it's Simon's job to lose. And that worries me for issues I highlighted earlier. But I don't think we'll know for 12+ months how intense this FO reorg actually is either way.


is that heat thing based on joe cowley?
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:56 pm

David wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:Hollinger has reported that Buchanan and Simon were the two guys he heard the most buzz about.

That and with the reports that the Bulls were most interested in the Heat as a FO model makes me think it's Simon's job to lose. And that worries me for issues I highlighted earlier. But I don't think we'll know for 12+ months how intense this FO reorg actually is either way.


is that heat thing based on joe cowley?

Can't remember who. There was also a report that they were targeting Heat players.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby David » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:07 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
David wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:Hollinger has reported that Buchanan and Simon were the two guys he heard the most buzz about.

That and with the reports that the Bulls were most interested in the Heat as a FO model makes me think it's Simon's job to lose. And that worries me for issues I highlighted earlier. But I don't think we'll know for 12+ months how intense this FO reorg actually is either way.


is that heat thing based on joe cowley?

Can't remember who. There was also a report that they were targeting Heat players.


from some googling it looks like all the weirdly heat-centric stuff is coming from cowley

meh
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby David » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:20 pm



horsefeathers horsefeathers horsefeathers horsefeathers horsefeathers horsefeathers horsefeathers
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby Regular Show » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:25 pm

I have no inside info when it comes to basketball and the Bulls...

Anecdotally speaking, it seems like Bobby Webster is the fans' choice and local sports media's choice for who they want the Bulls to hire. That Adam Simon guy seems like Paxson's choice. I can totally see Paxson being a fan of the Miami Heat and their culture of being horsefeathers and playing with an edge.

I hate the Miami Heat with a passion and I don't want to emulate them.


----



Lol, the dude is friends with Drake (I'm not joking). Seriously, just hire Bobby Webster to make the fans happy and get some goodwill in the process. This isn't a tough call honestly.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:26 pm

Sounds like Simon is being denied permission too.

Lol bolls.

Pessimism time, these guys are being "denied" becuase they don't actually have interest in this horsefeathers show.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby Regular Show » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:29 pm

David wrote:https://twitter.com/Sportsnet/status/1247220934886526977?s=20

horsefeathers horsefeathers horsefeathers horsefeathers horsefeathers horsefeathers horsefeathers


It's generally considered a rule across all sports that you can't deny permission if another team is giving the guy a promotion. If they offer Bobby Webster a 'President of Basketball Operations' title then the Raptors would have to match that and they can't (Masai Ujiri holds that title).

That is what the Cubs did to hire Theo away from the Red Sox.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:33 pm

Regular Show wrote:
David wrote:https://twitter.com/Sportsnet/status/1247220934886526977?s=20

horsefeathers horsefeathers horsefeathers horsefeathers horsefeathers horsefeathers horsefeathers


It's generally considered a rule across all sports that you can't deny permission if another team is giving the guy a promotion. If they offer Bobby Webster a President of Basketball Operations title then the Raptors would have to match that and they can't (Masai Ujirii holds that title).

That is what the Cubs did to hire Theo away from the Red Sox.

I don't know if the NBA has formal rules on this. Or if they do, it could be due to the suspension of play that this is still an "in season" move where they have total authority to block vs an offseason move.
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