Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby ChiCubsFan » Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:50 pm

Agree with that.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby UMFan83 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:33 pm

David wrote:
ChiCubsFan wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:I'm good with the hire, but still lol bolls for going about this process 100% wrong.


What was 100% wrong?


I do think the token interviews they gave yesterday reached WTF levels like they almost went out of their way to pick the worst people imaginable.

Beyond that, I don't really see anything wrong with the search they conducted and how (impressively) quickly they acted.


They are also getting hammered in some circles for not interviewing a minority candidate. If they were just trying to throw a couple of interviews together to save face, im surprised they didnt find one minority candidate to give an interview to.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby David » Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:35 pm

UMFan83 wrote:
David wrote:
ChiCubsFan wrote:
What was 100% wrong?


I do think the token interviews they gave yesterday reached WTF levels like they almost went out of their way to pick the worst people imaginable.

Beyond that, I don't really see anything wrong with the search they conducted and how (impressively) quickly they acted.


They are also getting hammered in some circles for not interviewing a minority candidate. If they were just trying to throw a couple of interviews together to save face, im surprised they didnt find one minority candidate to give an interview to.


Yeah, that was odd. I know they did get turned down on Troy Weaver.

Vincent Goodwill is reporting that AK plans to hire a POC for the GM position.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:01 pm

Okay, maybe like 85% wrong.

Their inability to fire Gar and clear Pax out of the way I think led to the perception that this wasn't a full control job and led to 3 of their first 4 candidates bowing out. Even if they insisted on Pax helping with the process, the still should have had him turn in his recognition for his VP role and announce his role as a senior advisor with a definitive end date. The new EVP ould have always asked him to re-neg on his resignation after the fact.

Then after being rejected multiple times over, they hodge podge together an awful list of filler candidates and manage to not get a single minority candidate after like 10 rumored candidates.

Now this whole "were gonna hire a POC as GM thing" instead of just hiring a POC looks like they're just reacting to the negative press to appease people rather than maybe just actually looking at their old boys club hiring policy that's consistently led to them being one of the least diverse FOs.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby David » Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:07 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:Their inability to fire Gar and clear Pax out of the way I think led to the perception that this wasn't a full control job and led to 3 of their first 4 candidates bowing out.


That is heavily speculative, at absolute best, unless I missed something.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby David » Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:14 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:Now this whole "were gonna hire a POC as GM thing" instead of just hiring a POC looks like they're just reacting to the negative press to appease people rather than maybe just actually looking at their old boys club hiring policy that's consistently led to them being one of the least diverse FOs.


They wanted to interview and weren't granted permission on either Webster (Japanese descent) or Troy Weaver. So, after that, your complaint is on the throwaway interviews that they didn't throw a minority in? Ok, fine, I guess.

I also think it's a huge leap to know what we know about Webster's background and assume that he said, "Nah, I'm good" to an interview for an executive VP of bball ops for the team he grew up a fan of just because John Paxson might still have a title somewhere on the website and get a paycheck. If that's been reported, I've missed it, but as far as I know the Raptors weren't going to let it happen.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:16 pm

David wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:Their inability to fire Gar and clear Pax out of the way I think led to the perception that this wasn't a full control job and led to 3 of their first 4 candidates bowing out.


That is heavily speculative, at absolute best, unless I missed something.

The odds that its just coincidence are so low. Maybe it was something other than GarPax, but when 75% of your first leak list decline you horsefeathers up something
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:18 pm

David wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:Now this whole "were gonna hire a POC as GM thing" instead of just hiring a POC looks like they're just reacting to the negative press to appease people rather than maybe just actually looking at their old boys club hiring policy that's consistently led to them being one of the least diverse FOs.


They wanted to interview and weren't granted permission on either Webster (Japanese descent) or Troy Weaver. So, after that, your complaint is on the throwaway interviews that they didn't throw a minority in? Ok, fine, I guess.

I also think it's a huge leap to know what we know about Webster's background and assume that he said, "Nah, I'm good" to an interview for an executive VP of bball ops for the team he grew up a fan of just because John Paxson might still have a title somewhere on the website and get a paycheck. If that's been reported, I've missed it, but as far as I know the Raptors weren't going to let it happen.

The Troy Weaver thing sounds like it was for the GM role, not the EVP role, fyi.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby David » Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:26 pm

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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby ChiCubsFan » Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:06 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
David wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:Now this whole "were gonna hire a POC as GM thing" instead of just hiring a POC looks like they're just reacting to the negative press to appease people rather than maybe just actually looking at their old boys club hiring policy that's consistently led to them being one of the least diverse FOs.


They wanted to interview and weren't granted permission on either Webster (Japanese descent) or Troy Weaver. So, after that, your complaint is on the throwaway interviews that they didn't throw a minority in? Ok, fine, I guess.

I also think it's a huge leap to know what we know about Webster's background and assume that he said, "Nah, I'm good" to an interview for an executive VP of bball ops for the team he grew up a fan of just because John Paxson might still have a title somewhere on the website and get a paycheck. If that's been reported, I've missed it, but as far as I know the Raptors weren't going to let it happen.

The Troy Weaver thing sounds like it was for the GM role, not the EVP role, fyi.


Where did that come from? I read those were the 4 preferred candidates and at the time the exact title/responsibilities of the position weren’t known. I guess you can infer that the Raps denying permission to interview may mean it was only to interview for the GM position, but it seems odd that 4 guys interviewing for the “same job” would be offered different titles.

Edit: my bad read Webber not Weaver. I don’t know much about Weaver not being interested or the job he may have been interviewing for. Still assume all 4 were being interviewed for the VP job though, but who knows.
Last edited by ChiCubsFan on Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby ChiCubsFan » Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:07 pm

100% agree stating they want to hire a person of color for the GM role is dumb. Just do it. No need to say it ahead of time.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby 17 Seconds » Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:30 pm

am i allowed to enjoy that paxson 3 against the suns again?
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby rawaction » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:10 am

Andy wrote:I'm cool with a guy who built a #2 seed in the West without any superduperstars (yes, I know Jokic is awesome) running the Bulls.


I'm interested to see how this plays out. Nuggets kinda go for "team" players, who all move the ball and pass well. A lot of balance. I don't think the Bulls have very many players on the roster who fit the bill. Maybe Coby White. But LaVine and Lauri are kind of ball dominant guys. I really think the Bulls can build a team with one of LaVine/Markkanen, but I'm more intrigued by what an actual good GM could get for them.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby Cubswin11 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:14 am

rawaction wrote:
Andy wrote:I'm cool with a guy who built a #2 seed in the West without any superduperstars (yes, I know Jokic is awesome) running the Bulls.


I'm interested to see how this plays out. Nuggets kinda go for "team" players, who all move the ball and pass well. A lot of balance. I don't think the Bulls have very many players on the roster who fit the bill. Maybe Coby White. But LaVine and Lauri are kind of ball dominant guys. I really think the Bulls can build a team with one of LaVine/Markkanen, but I'm more intrigued by what an actual good GM could get for them.

Figuring out what they have with the current guys next year with a real coach/FO and who is worth keeping/flipping and then having built out a FO/coaching staff that would be attractive for the monster FA class in 2 years where basically everyone is or can be a FA would be my main two goals for the team in the short term.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby David » Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:09 am

Stealing the quotes/snippets here from a post on RealGM... Wowwwwwww.

HomoSapien wrote:Just some insane tidbits. I tend to trust Cowley on things like this, but even if only a fraction of this stuff is true it speaks volumes to how dysfunctional we've become. Here are some of the highlights:

The drafting of Marquis Teague was catastrophic on many levels. First, because Thibodeau wanted Draymond Green and was vetoed, and secondly, because Forman was actually talked into the pick by Kentucky coach John Calipari. A fact that the higher-ups have admitted to happening.


He quickly gained the reputation as a guy that was paranoid, turning his focus to keeping his job rather than doing his job.

That meant inserting “spies’’ throughout the entire organization, as the Sun-Times documented back in 2017 with then assistant GM/coach Randy Brown being identified as one of many. Brown denied the allegation to the paper, but former Bull Rip Hamilton came out days later and confirmed the suspicions around Brown.

Forman was also into the practice of confiscating the phones and computers of employees, looking for leaks or negative comments about him.


:o

While Thibodeau had his obvious disagreements with Paxson, both knew where they stood with each other. Forman, however, played both sides of the fence, telling Thibodeau one thing, but bad-mouthing the coach to the players.

Even Paxson grew distrustful of Forman after he heard how Forman would go on these scouting trips and blame organizational mistakes on Paxson, doing everything he could to wipe the weapon clean of his fingerprints. The Sun-Times reported that story several times.


Butler was hoping his loyalty would be treated differently. When he laid out his plans of how he wanted to stay in Chicago and recruit a championship-level team, he finished the presentation feeling like Forman was on board. So off to Europe he went, hoping the likes of Kyrie Irving or Kyle Lowry would be Bulls.

Within a few days, Butler wasn’t even a Bull, traded to the Timberwolves as the rebuild was underway.


The final straw, though, seemingly came in November, when the Sun-Times reported that former players were very angry when they felt Forman was aloof toward them when the Bulls honored Luol Deng at a home game.

Word got back to Jerry Reinsdorf, and the man that has always had Forman’s back was now done handing out life preservers.


And perhaps most importantly:

The Sun-Times initially reported that even with the front office restructure coming, Forman could be kept on as a lead scout or thrown a new title, but that even seems to no longer be in play.


More at the link: https://chicago.suntimes.com/bulls/2020 ... wer-demise
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby ChiCubsFan » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:57 am

Pretty bad stuff in there. So that makes it sound like at least Gar is gone. That would be great. Of the two, id much rather have him completely gone from the organization. I really wouldn’t mind Pax being in a Doug Collins advisor to Reinsdorf type of role.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby Andy » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:23 pm

Jesus, what a horsefeathering clown. Thanks for a decade of that crap, Reinsdorf.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby UMFan83 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:37 pm

I'd really like to understand the decision-making behind trading Butler. I was on Team Rebuild at the time so I wasn't opposed to trading Butler, though I wanted to hold out for a bigger ransom than what we got. But if Butler was pitching that he could recruit other stars to Chicago (and I definitely believe he could have), I would have been fully on board with keeping Jimmy. Did the FO not like Jimmy? I know there was the 3 alphas drama, but by all accounts maybe he had some leadership issues but he worked his butt off and that apparently rubbed off on the younger teammates.

I guess the FO logic is that they couldn't be confident that Jimmy would resign in 2 years and at that point in his team friendly contract, his value was at its highest. But the backstabbing by Gar is horrible.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby Andy » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:41 pm

UMFan83 wrote:I'd really like to understand the decision-making behind trading Butler. I was on Team Rebuild at the time so I wasn't opposed to trading Butler, though I wanted to hold out for a bigger ransom than what we got. But if Butler was pitching that he could recruit other stars to Chicago (and I definitely believe he could have), I would have been fully on board with keeping Jimmy. Did the FO not like Jimmy? I know there was the 3 alphas drama, but by all accounts maybe he had some leadership issues but he worked his butt off and that apparently rubbed off on the younger teammates.

I guess the FO logic is that they couldn't be confident that Jimmy would resign in 2 years and at that point in his team friendly contract, his value was at its highest. But the backstabbing by Gar is horrible.

Being as fair as possible to the Bulls on that one, Jimmy has kind of revealed himself to be a bit of a dick in recent years. Not a full-blown awful person, but just hard enough to deal with that I can maybe sort of understand why you'd be inclined to get rid of him if you don't think you're going far with him anyway. (And to be clear, I'd take him back on the Bulls immediately if the option was there.)

But as you said, the knifing by Gar is unforgivable regardless of context.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:48 pm

Yea at the time it was all, you can't build around Jimmy on the supermax. But if he would have taken the regular max, it certainly seems like he was moved more to personality clashes than anything. And JB has clashed consistently, so I don't think it's just the Bulls just being sensitive, he's definitely difficult to work with, but would have been worth it.

And I don't even know that they could have been a Championship team led by Jimmy, but maybe been a real fun like early 2000s Nets or early 2000s Kings that made a lot of conference finals or NBA finals even if they never won. Of course it would require so many other things than just Jimmy recruiting like not horsefeathering up the coaching hire. In that alternate timeline reality though, JB still ends up one of the all time Bulls greats and has his jersey in the rafters one day.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby Brian » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:50 pm

Yeah, with hindsight, it's safe to say there's a good chance he would have ended up demanding a trade anyways. So in an alternate reality where the Bulls don't trade Jimmy at that time we're probably in relatively the same position we are now.

Basically, it was horsefeathers, but it didn't doom the franchise because it was already on a crash course with that fate no matter what happened with Jimmy.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:51 pm

Brian wrote:Yeah, with hindsight, it's safe to say there's a good chance he would have ended up demanding a trade anyways. So in an alternate reality where the Bulls don't trade Jimmy at that time we're probably in relatively the same position we are now.

Basically, it was horsefeathers, but it didn't doom the franchise because it was already on a crash course with that fate no matter what happened with Jimmy.

Yea, all things considered that Jimmy move was a pretty decent one and nearly everything else has been awful about the rebuild.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby David » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:19 pm

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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby Regular Show » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:59 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
Brian wrote:Yeah, with hindsight, it's safe to say there's a good chance he would have ended up demanding a trade anyways. So in an alternate reality where the Bulls don't trade Jimmy at that time we're probably in relatively the same position we are now.

Basically, it was horsefeathers, but it didn't doom the franchise because it was already on a crash course with that fate no matter what happened with Jimmy.

Yea, all things considered that Jimmy move was a pretty decent one and nearly everything else has been awful about the rebuild.


I think Wendell Carter and Coby White are solid draft picks. The Mirotic re-signing and then trading away for a 1st-round pick was a good move. It hasn't all been bad moves during this rebuild...

I think they could've done a little bit better in the Jimmy trade and extracted a little bit more from Minnesota. But it's a solid trade like you mentioned and LaVine has developed into a very solid, borderline All-Star 2 guard. Markkanen has a lot of potential, and I wish the Bulls would have him work with Dirk in the offseason.

The main thing is FA and how badly we do in that area. I think drafting is fine, for the most part. Hiring head coaches has been bad since we let Thibodeau go. We're behind in analytics, but improving in that area.

I think the rebuild has gone okay, but finishing it is the difficult part that GarPax couldn't solve or address.
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Re: Chicago Bulls 2019-2020

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:39 pm

Here's the part where I get excited about FO hires I know nothing about, but for them being new faces;




And in names I actually know, Cowley is throwing Adrian Griffin as a name for HC whos picking up steam. He seems like he'd be a solid hire.
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