NFL Week 11

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Re: NFL Week 11

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:27 pm

jumbo wrote:
Question - if the Bears traded Robert Quinn (humor me on this), his dead cap hits the 2021 cap, and the new team has him with no future dead cap liability? He could be a one year rental and then cut before 2022 and whatever cap hit he would have had was already eaten by the Bears?

Yep. That's exactly right. I don't see him having value, but let's just say you could trade him for a conditional 7th rounder with the condition being he wins MVP- whatever outrageous condition where you're just giving him away and the receiving team basically has a 11.5M 1 year deal with options (effectively) and no dead cap.

I'm still skepitkal you could find someone so I think you're now at the point of attaching something of value to him like a draft pick. But in theory it works for both teams, 11.5m total net savings for the Bears (spread out over 2 years for cap purposes). Free trial for the receiving team.
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Re: NFL Week 11

Postby jumbo » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:41 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
jumbo wrote:
Question - if the Bears traded Robert Quinn (humor me on this), his dead cap hits the 2021 cap, and the new team has him with no future dead cap liability? He could be a one year rental and then cut before 2022 and whatever cap hit he would have had was already eaten by the Bears?

Yep. That's exactly right. I don't see him having value, but let's just say you could trade him for a conditional 7th rounder with the condition being he wins MVP- whatever outrageous condition where you're just giving him away and the receiving team basically has a 11.5M 1 year deal with options (effectively) and no dead cap.

I'm still skepitkal you could find someone so I think you're now at the point of attaching something of value to him like a draft pick. But in theory it works for both teams, 11.5m total net savings for the Bears (spread out over 2 years for cap purposes). Free trial for the receiving team.



Yeah, I agree he is not an attractive trade target for any teams out there, but I knew his contract status off the top of my head. It is pretty nice for an acquiring team to have the luxury of no dead cap.

Why does his 11.5 spread over two years? I was thinking the dead cap for a trade is exactly like a cut, and there is a provision where a team can designate a player as a post-June cut so that they can look for a new job early and the cutting team can spread the cap hit over two years instead of one.
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Re: NFL Week 11

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:11 am

So the dead cap for Quinn in 2022-24 is 9.3m total (3.1 equal installments).

If he's traded, that 9.3m accelerates, but they save 11.6m in base salary and a workout bonus. 11.6-9.3 = 2.3m in 2021 savings. Then in 2022, presuming he'd have just been waived, that remaining 9.3m is the savings. Total 11.6m savings (I forgot about a 0.1m roster bonus before).

But the other way to look at it is just that the dead cap is dead and you can't really save it ever. And the rollforward nature of the cap means that moving cap hits around can be done with relative ease. To look at total potential savings you just look at base salaries you would have otherwise paid that you won't. That's the "true" savings. In a cut, savings you're only looking at non-guaranteed savings. With a trade it'd be guaranteed and non-guaranteed salaries.

Take Charles Leno as another example. He's got a weird contract with some deferred money in 22-23. If thet cut him I look at his 8.9m remaining 2021 base salary (all non-guaranteed) as the savings. With the cap rules you'd see "only 6.2m" as the savings, which is true in 2021 cap space, but with the acceleration of dead caps, you'd save the extra 2.7m in 2022. If you "needed" that extra 2.7m now you'd use the June 1 feature or you'd just do some restructuring tricks somewhere else, basically shifting around someone else's dead cap to move the cap around. All else being the same you always want to defer dead caps because you can roll forward unused cap but there are penalties for going over. The key is knowing your future liabilities as to not overspend too much.

That may have been more than you were looking for but hopefully it helps some haha.
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Re: NFL Week 11

Postby rawaction » Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:34 am

WrigleyField 22 wrote:So the dead cap for Quinn in 2022-24 is 9.3m total (3.1 equal installments).

If he's traded, that 9.3m accelerates, but they save 11.6m in base salary and a workout bonus. 11.6-9.3 = 2.3m in 2021 savings. Then in 2022, presuming he'd have just been waived, that remaining 9.3m is the savings. Total 11.6m savings (I forgot about a 0.1m roster bonus before).

But the other way to look at it is just that the dead cap is dead and you can't really save it ever. And the rollforward nature of the cap means that moving cap hits around can be done with relative ease. To look at total potential savings you just look at base salaries you would have otherwise paid that you won't. That's the "true" savings. In a cut, savings you're only looking at non-guaranteed savings. With a trade it'd be guaranteed and non-guaranteed salaries.

Take Charles Leno as another example. He's got a weird contract with some deferred money in 22-23. If thet cut him I look at his 8.9m remaining 2021 base salary (all non-guaranteed) as the savings. With the cap rules you'd see "only 6.2m" as the savings, which is true in 2021 cap space, but with the acceleration of dead caps, you'd save the extra 2.7m in 2022. If you "needed" that extra 2.7m now you'd use the June 1 feature or you'd just do some restructuring tricks somewhere else, basically shifting around someone else's dead cap to move the cap around. All else being the same you always want to defer dead caps because you can roll forward unused cap but there are penalties for going over. The key is knowing your future liabilities as to not overspend too much.

That may have been more than you were looking for but hopefully it helps some haha.


I don't know if you can June 1 cut Leno, because he's a FA after 2021. The June 1 feature allows you to spread the dead caps over 2 years, but I don't think you can spread that over a season he wouldn't be under contract anyway. Then again, that deferred money may make a difference.
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Re: NFL Week 11

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:55 am

rawaction wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:So the dead cap for Quinn in 2022-24 is 9.3m total (3.1 equal installments).

If he's traded, that 9.3m accelerates, but they save 11.6m in base salary and a workout bonus. 11.6-9.3 = 2.3m in 2021 savings. Then in 2022, presuming he'd have just been waived, that remaining 9.3m is the savings. Total 11.6m savings (I forgot about a 0.1m roster bonus before).

But the other way to look at it is just that the dead cap is dead and you can't really save it ever. And the rollforward nature of the cap means that moving cap hits around can be done with relative ease. To look at total potential savings you just look at base salaries you would have otherwise paid that you won't. That's the "true" savings. In a cut, savings you're only looking at non-guaranteed savings. With a trade it'd be guaranteed and non-guaranteed salaries.

Take Charles Leno as another example. He's got a weird contract with some deferred money in 22-23. If thet cut him I look at his 8.9m remaining 2021 base salary (all non-guaranteed) as the savings. With the cap rules you'd see "only 6.2m" as the savings, which is true in 2021 cap space, but with the acceleration of dead caps, you'd save the extra 2.7m in 2022. If you "needed" that extra 2.7m now you'd use the June 1 feature or you'd just do some restructuring tricks somewhere else, basically shifting around someone else's dead cap to move the cap around. All else being the same you always want to defer dead caps because you can roll forward unused cap but there are penalties for going over. The key is knowing your future liabilities as to not overspend too much.

That may have been more than you were looking for but hopefully it helps some haha.


I don't know if you can June 1 cut Leno, because he's a FA after 2021. The June 1 feature allows you to spread the dead caps over 2 years, but I don't think you can spread that over a season he wouldn't be under contract anyway. Then again, that deferred money may make a difference.

You're right in a typical "one year remaining" scenario. But I think those extra deferred/void years matter in the case of Leno since at the time of the cut they would be contract years that are potentially voidable, but for which the criteria to void them haven't been met.

So for instance Hicks can't be June 1 cut. Well, he could be cut after June 1, but there wouldn't be any special cap accounting for it.
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Re: NFL Week 11

Postby rawaction » Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:19 am

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
rawaction wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:So the dead cap for Quinn in 2022-24 is 9.3m total (3.1 equal installments).

If he's traded, that 9.3m accelerates, but they save 11.6m in base salary and a workout bonus. 11.6-9.3 = 2.3m in 2021 savings. Then in 2022, presuming he'd have just been waived, that remaining 9.3m is the savings. Total 11.6m savings (I forgot about a 0.1m roster bonus before).

But the other way to look at it is just that the dead cap is dead and you can't really save it ever. And the rollforward nature of the cap means that moving cap hits around can be done with relative ease. To look at total potential savings you just look at base salaries you would have otherwise paid that you won't. That's the "true" savings. In a cut, savings you're only looking at non-guaranteed savings. With a trade it'd be guaranteed and non-guaranteed salaries.

Take Charles Leno as another example. He's got a weird contract with some deferred money in 22-23. If thet cut him I look at his 8.9m remaining 2021 base salary (all non-guaranteed) as the savings. With the cap rules you'd see "only 6.2m" as the savings, which is true in 2021 cap space, but with the acceleration of dead caps, you'd save the extra 2.7m in 2022. If you "needed" that extra 2.7m now you'd use the June 1 feature or you'd just do some restructuring tricks somewhere else, basically shifting around someone else's dead cap to move the cap around. All else being the same you always want to defer dead caps because you can roll forward unused cap but there are penalties for going over. The key is knowing your future liabilities as to not overspend too much.

That may have been more than you were looking for but hopefully it helps some haha.


I don't know if you can June 1 cut Leno, because he's a FA after 2021. The June 1 feature allows you to spread the dead caps over 2 years, but I don't think you can spread that over a season he wouldn't be under contract anyway. Then again, that deferred money may make a difference.

You're right in a typical "one year remaining" scenario. But I think those extra deferred/void years matter in the case of Leno since at the time of the cut they would be contract years that are potentially voidable, but for which the criteria to void them haven't been met.

So for instance Hicks can't be June 1 cut. Well, he could be cut after June 1, but there wouldn't be any special cap accounting for it.


Gotcha. I should have figured those void years made a difference.
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Re: NFL Week 11

Postby rawaction » Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:47 am

Russell Wilson to DK: 10- 13, 177 yards.
Russell Wilson to everyone else: 11-15, 46 yards, 1 TD
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