Bullpen Options

cubsclapp
Starter
Posts: 283
Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 8:40 pm
x 365
x 172
Contact:

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby cubsclapp » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:01 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
cubsclapp wrote:
bd811 wrote:
100% agree. but it's starting to feel that way.


I'm confused by all the hate for Kintzler. Is everyone that obsessed with the K rate? He's been a groundball machine his entire career, rarely walks guys, and doesn't allow many dongs. He's a FIP beater and his consistent low 3s ERA isn't fluky. We're talking about a 306 2/3-inning sample of him putting together a 3.26 ERA out of the bullpen.

And his game would work better than literally everywhere else with the Cubs' elite groundball defense, and the bullpen is already full of power arms that miss bats. More than anything they could use a guy that doesn't issue walks, while also having a great track record of run prevention.

There are a few guys I'd still rather have, but Kintzler would be a really solid addition to the bullpen.


I think there's room to not think of K's as the end-all-be-all, and still be pretty concerned about Kintzler not striking anyone out. Out of 109 qualified relievers the last 2 years, he's 108th in K%. He'll need a multi-year deal and he's 33 now. That profile can go quickly, and if they continue to play with the DefinitelyNotJuicedBall, it adds even more risk.


His velocity last year was as good as it's ever been across the board and he allowed just 5 homers in 71 1/3 innings with the juiced ball. He's 33 and he could absolutely see the results fade quickly, but it's a risk I'd be fine taking on say a 2-year deal, $12-16 million deal (and ideally just a 1-year deal, of course).
0 x
@TheBlogfines

User avatar
Tim
Hall of Fame
Posts: 43921
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:02 pm
Location: Naperville, IL
x 63
x 1686
Contact:

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby Tim » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:05 pm

cubsclapp wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
cubsclapp wrote:
I'm confused by all the hate for Kintzler. Is everyone that obsessed with the K rate? He's been a groundball machine his entire career, rarely walks guys, and doesn't allow many dongs. He's a FIP beater and his consistent low 3s ERA isn't fluky. We're talking about a 306 2/3-inning sample of him putting together a 3.26 ERA out of the bullpen.

And his game would work better than literally everywhere else with the Cubs' elite groundball defense, and the bullpen is already full of power arms that miss bats. More than anything they could use a guy that doesn't issue walks, while also having a great track record of run prevention.

There are a few guys I'd still rather have, but Kintzler would be a really solid addition to the bullpen.


I think there's room to not think of K's as the end-all-be-all, and still be pretty concerned about Kintzler not striking anyone out. Out of 109 qualified relievers the last 2 years, he's 108th in K%. He'll need a multi-year deal and he's 33 now. That profile can go quickly, and if they continue to play with the DefinitelyNotJuicedBall, it adds even more risk.


His velocity last year was as good as it's ever been across the board and he allowed just 5 homers in 71 1/3 innings with the juiced ball. He's 33 and he could absolutely see the results fade quickly, but it's a risk I'd be fine taking on say a 2-year deal, $12-16 million deal (and ideally just a 1-year deal, of course).

If he doesn't have a Proven Closer uplift on his price, I wouldn't mind him as a #3 pen acquisition at all.
2 x
Spoiler: show

Image

User avatar
CubsWin
5-Time All-Star
Posts: 6639
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 9:25 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
x 130
x 264

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby CubsWin » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:35 am

cubsclapp wrote:
Tim wrote:
cubsclapp wrote:
I'm confused by all the hate for Kintzler. Is everyone that obsessed with the K rate? He's been a groundball machine his entire career, rarely walks guys, and doesn't allow many dongs. He's a FIP beater and his consistent low 3s ERA isn't fluky. We're talking about a 306 2/3-inning sample of him putting together a 3.26 ERA out of the bullpen.

And his game would work better than literally everywhere else with the Cubs' elite groundball defense, and the bullpen is already full of power arms that miss bats. More than anything they could use a guy that doesn't issue walks, while also having a great track record of run prevention.

There are a few guys I'd still rather have, but Kintzler would be a really solid addition to the bullpen.

For a closer, I want elite performance, not good performance. I'd be happy to have him in a middle relief role, just not the highest leverage innings.


Oh, I wouldn't at all want him closing, but he's plenty fine as another guy in the mix. Morrow would almost surely get the nod over him at least. And Wilson if he hasn't turned into Rick Ankiel.

Every good bullpen needs a guy who can induce a double play. And, as you wrote, he'd play up with the Cubs elite infield defense behind him.

Theo and Jed have gone out and got ground ball inducers before to varying degrees of success. Kintzler's track record is better than all those guys. I agree he'd be a good guy to have come out of the pen. I think the pushback was in the idea that if the Cubs signed him it would mean they'd be out on someone like Davis, Holland or Reed. So long as that's not the case, I don't think anyone wouldn't want to have him.
0 x
"But you're stuck in a horsefeathers' stigma of the horsefeathers' Dodgers and the Phillies and the Cardinals..." - Lee Elia on April 29, 1983

User avatar
CubsWin
5-Time All-Star
Posts: 6639
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 9:25 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
x 130
x 264

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby CubsWin » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:38 am

Tim wrote:
cubsclapp wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
I think there's room to not think of K's as the end-all-be-all, and still be pretty concerned about Kintzler not striking anyone out. Out of 109 qualified relievers the last 2 years, he's 108th in K%. He'll need a multi-year deal and he's 33 now. That profile can go quickly, and if they continue to play with the DefinitelyNotJuicedBall, it adds even more risk.


His velocity last year was as good as it's ever been across the board and he allowed just 5 homers in 71 1/3 innings with the juiced ball. He's 33 and he could absolutely see the results fade quickly, but it's a risk I'd be fine taking on say a 2-year deal, $12-16 million deal (and ideally just a 1-year deal, of course).

If he doesn't have a Proven Closer uplift on his price, I wouldn't mind him as a #3 pen acquisition at all.

My dream scenario for pen acquisitions was Morrow, McGee and Nicasio. Two strikes and one home run there. If it's Morrow, Kintzler and someone like Davis, Reed, Holland, Britton, etc., I'd be happy with that FA haul.

I have my doubts that'll happen though.
0 x
"But you're stuck in a horsefeathers' stigma of the horsefeathers' Dodgers and the Phillies and the Cardinals..." - Lee Elia on April 29, 1983

User avatar
Bobson Dugnutt
All-Star
Posts: 1619
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2003 9:19 pm
Location: Ukrainian Village
x 914
x 648

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby Bobson Dugnutt » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:23 am

CubsWin wrote:
cubsclapp wrote:
Tim wrote:For a closer, I want elite performance, not good performance. I'd be happy to have him in a middle relief role, just not the highest leverage innings.


Oh, I wouldn't at all want him closing, but he's plenty fine as another guy in the mix. Morrow would almost surely get the nod over him at least. And Wilson if he hasn't turned into Rick Ankiel.

Every good bullpen needs a guy who can induce a double play. And, as you wrote, he'd play up with the Cubs elite infield defense behind him.

Theo and Jed have gone out and got ground ball inducers before to varying degrees of success. Kintzler's track record is better than all those guys. I agree he'd be a good guy to have come out of the pen. I think the pushback was in the idea that if the Cubs signed him it would mean they'd be out on someone like Davis, Holland or Reed. So long as that's not the case, I don't think anyone wouldn't want to have him.


Yep, that’s where I’m at. I’m fine with Kintzler, just not as the second best reliever acquired.
0 x
Image

User avatar
Transmogrified Tiger
Inner-Circle HOF
Posts: 54585
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:23 pm
Location: Greater St. Louis
x 329
x 4411

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:31 am



If Kintzler is going to Washington, Colome is going to St. Louis, and Holland still looks most likely to go to the Rockies, how many suitors for Davis are really left? One of the Texas teams? The Twins?
0 x

User avatar
CubsWin
5-Time All-Star
Posts: 6639
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 9:25 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
x 130
x 264

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby CubsWin » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:42 am

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:

If Kintzler is going to Washington, Colome is going to St. Louis, and Holland still looks most likely to go to the Rockies, how many suitors for Davis are really left? One of the Texas teams? The Twins?

Does anyone really see the Cubs signing both Cobb and Davis (or Lynn and Holland)? I don't. It's an either/or for me. Which means either a trade is likely to fill one of those spots (or both spots) or the Cubs are willing to stand pat with the closer options they currently have because they have to add another (decent at least) starter.
0 x
"But you're stuck in a horsefeathers' stigma of the horsefeathers' Dodgers and the Phillies and the Cardinals..." - Lee Elia on April 29, 1983

User avatar
CubsWin
5-Time All-Star
Posts: 6639
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 9:25 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
x 130
x 264

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby CubsWin » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:16 am

There are still lots of options here. I mean it's not inconceivable that the top end of their bullpen is set with Morrow, Strop, Edwards and Wilson. They could still add a FA like Steve Cishek or Seung-Hwan Oh and have Monty, Grimm and Maples fill out the rest, but that's rolling the dice in a fairly serious way in the middle of a championship window.

They could trade for Britton, Colome or Hand though that might get pricey. They could visit the South Beach Pawn Shop and pick up a Barraclough (I hear they're delicious). Addison Reed is still unsigned (as of this writing). Reed and say a cheaper reclamation project like Neftali Feliz might not be bad. So still plenty of different ways to go to improve the top end of the pen beyond signing Davis (or Holland).

On the starter side, there a several trade options (some better than others). My personal favorites are Gausman and Archer but it won't be cheap. Danny Salazar's name has been mentioned. Duffy has been talked about but I'm not high on that idea. Or the Cubs could look for a one-year stop gap guy like Patrick Corbin. A surplus for surplus deal with the Braves could be worked out. Of course, Alex Cobb is still an option if they don't spend big on someone like Wade Davis (or even if they do, but I doubt it).

Something tells me, it's trade for one of a high leverage reliever or good MOR starter and sign the other. Or trade for both, I guess. I just don't like the idea of 4 years of either Davis, Holland or Cobb.
0 x
"But you're stuck in a horsefeathers' stigma of the horsefeathers' Dodgers and the Phillies and the Cardinals..." - Lee Elia on April 29, 1983

User avatar
Cubswin11
Superstar
Posts: 17814
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:17 pm
x 2347
x 2335

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby Cubswin11 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:14 pm

I get why, but I hate the idea of trading for the pitching needs (especially the rumored guys that would go). We have money and ability to stay under the LT, spend it on the pitching. Cobb and Davis may be an either or but probably could get both done with staying under the LT. But I even prefer Cobb or Darvish and then someone like Oh (as mentioned) or a lesser RP or Davis and then like Hellickson vs trading any of Happ/Javy/Almora/Russell/Schwarber for one or both of the pitching spots needed yet.
0 x
Screw Pitchers

User avatar
Cubswin11
Superstar
Posts: 17814
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:17 pm
x 2347
x 2335

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby Cubswin11 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:36 pm

The Twins are going after Rodney apparently, that would likely knock them out for Davis
0 x
Screw Pitchers

Bryant's Disco Ball
All-Star
Posts: 4735
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:34 am
Location: Formerly PleasewinCubs
x 1
x 383

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby Bryant's Disco Ball » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:46 pm

With every decent reliever and some mediocre ones getting an AAV of at least $7 million this offseason, great job by the Cubs signing Strop to that contract that pays him $5.85 mil this season and has an option for $6.25 mil next season.
0 x
Not saying it will happen, but the Cubs coming back from a 3-1 deficit to win the World Series does seem like the appropriate way to cap off this season and make the 30-for-30 even better.

User avatar
Cubswin11
Superstar
Posts: 17814
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:17 pm
x 2347
x 2335

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby Cubswin11 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:19 pm

Twins sign Rodney. Don’t see where Davis goes and gets big years/money at this point. Morrow’s deal +$15ish more million seems far more likely.
0 x
Screw Pitchers

User avatar
BigbadB
Hall of Fame
Posts: 24298
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 2:38 am
Location: San Diego
x 15
x 88

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby BigbadB » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:31 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:Twins sign Rodney. Don’t see where Davis goes and gets big years/money at this point. Morrow’s deal +$15ish more million seems far more likely.


There just aren't enough Mariano Rivera/Trevor Hoffman type closers in baseball these days where you can just pencil in 40 saves for the next 4-10 years, so it's not really surprising to me that a guy like Davis and a 4 year deal is still sitting out there at this point. How many current top tier closers were closers 3 years ago? How many will still be closing in 3 years? That's just not something teams seam all that willing to gamble on.
0 x

User avatar
Cubswin11
Superstar
Posts: 17814
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:17 pm
x 2347
x 2335

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby Cubswin11 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:40 pm

BigbadB wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:Twins sign Rodney. Don’t see where Davis goes and gets big years/money at this point. Morrow’s deal +$15ish more million seems far more likely.


There just aren't enough Mariano Rivera/Trevor Hoffman type closers in baseball these days where you can just pencil in 40 saves for the next 4-10 years, so it's not really surprising to me that a guy like Davis and a 4 year deal is still sitting out there at this point. How many current top tier closers were closers 3 years ago? How many will still be closing in 3 years? That's just not something teams seam all that willing to gamble on.

Yeah agree. Notwithstanding Davis probably should go kick Mark Melancon in the nuts next time he sees him.
0 x
Screw Pitchers

jehr
Role Player
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:35 pm
x 127
x 34

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby jehr » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:47 am

Travis Wood DFAd by the Padres. Any interest in bringing him back on a cheap deal?
1 x

sweetpeteman
5-Time All-Star
Posts: 7886
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:13 pm
Location: The River
x 5
x 52

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby sweetpeteman » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:00 am

jehr wrote:Travis Wood DFAd by the Padres. Any interest in bringing him back on a cheap deal?


No.
0 x

davell
Hall of Fame
Posts: 20621
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:55 pm
x 1453
x 1866

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby davell » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:10 am

jehr wrote:Travis Wood DFAd by the Padres. Any interest in bringing him back on a cheap deal?


I'd explore it. But, only if its at the league minimum. He was awful last year obviously and lost close to 2 MPH off his FB. Is it real or did his pitching coaches horsefeathers him up? My guess is its the former and he may justbbe at the stage where he's not a ML pitcher anymore. But, I'd take a look and find out, I guess.
0 x
Additional rule: you have to have one or the other.The only exception is you have an amazing board name. davell, I'm looking at you; put up a [expletive] avatar or something if your name only sounds like somebody tried say Dave as they lapsed into a coma.

User avatar
Transmogrified Tiger
Inner-Circle HOF
Posts: 54585
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:23 pm
Location: Greater St. Louis
x 329
x 4411

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:14 am

davell wrote:
jehr wrote:Travis Wood DFAd by the Padres. Any interest in bringing him back on a cheap deal?


I'd explore it. But, only if its at the league minimum. He was awful last year obviously and lost close to 2 MPH off his FB. Is it real or did his pitching coaches horsefeathers him up? My guess is its the former and he may justbbe at the stage where he's not a ML pitcher anymore. But, I'd take a look and find out, I guess.


It looks like he's lost about 1 mph from his Cubs days, he was 89-90 as a starter and 91-92 as a reliever, and last year it was more 88s as a starter and 90s as a reliever.
0 x

We Got The Whole 9
All-Star
Posts: 2470
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:38 am
x 275

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby We Got The Whole 9 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:45 am

horsefeathers, I know that it is pointless to think about this but I can't help but wonder what would have happened if we had thrown gobs of money at Jansen last winter. Reportedly he was ready to sign with the Nats until Turner and some of his Dodgers teammates called him and convinced him to go back to L.A.. If we had just gone above and beyond and signed him instead, not only would we have been considerably stronger but the Dodgers would have been a lot weaker and we might have made it back to the WS and also had our closer situation figured out for another handful of years. I just think that when a talent like that is on the open market we should be all over it and we messed that one up.
Last edited by We Got The Whole 9 on Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
0 x

We Got The Whole 9
All-Star
Posts: 2470
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:38 am
x 275

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby We Got The Whole 9 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:47 am

That said, I think we should grab Reed and Cahill
0 x

User avatar
UMFan83
Inner-Circle HOF
Posts: 73444
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 8:42 pm
Location: Southport Ave
x 2037
x 2934
Contact:

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby UMFan83 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:36 pm

Well maybe nevermind about getting Britton

0 x
Win it for Fred

User avatar
Enn Tea
All-Star
Posts: 3423
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 9:03 pm
Location: South Florida
x 33
x 151

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby Enn Tea » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:20 am

UMFan83 wrote:Well maybe nevermind about getting Britton



Id be down for getting him at a bargain
0 x

CaliforniaRaisin
Inner-Circle HOF
Posts: 88689
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 2:20 pm
Location: Pasadena, CA
x 420
x 1895

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby CaliforniaRaisin » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:22 am

The Diamondbacks are close to signing this guy:

5 x
Image

User avatar
Cubswin11
Superstar
Posts: 17814
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:17 pm
x 2347
x 2335

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby Cubswin11 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:08 pm

With Reed gone there's really nobody left I'd feel comfortable with committing multiple years and decent AAV to in the relief market. But Oh on a 1 year deal intrigues me a bit as a last bullpen piece. I'd be fine trying him as the nominal closer to start the year if they feel he looks like he's back to his 2016 self or close to it.
1 x
Screw Pitchers

User avatar
Bear Cub
Starter
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2003 11:22 am
Location: Geneseo, Il
x 651
x 7

Re: Bullpen Options

Postby Bear Cub » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:58 am

Tony Watson, Duensing,Bud Norris, Oh, Holland and Liriano are still out there.
0 x
Bring Sammy back into the Cubs family!


Return to “Transactions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Perd and 1 guest