Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Cubswin11 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:29 am

treebird wrote:i’m going to go out on a limb and say the contract we asked arrieta if he’d accept was similar to the darvish deal in that it was on that would allow him to play major league baseball.

no way did we offer arrieta something comparable to this and double no way would he have turned it down.

Yeah I doubt it was the same deal as well and agree no way would he have turned it down. It was probably a similar structure but only like 4/80-90 guaranteed with incentives to bump it up another ~$20 million and/or team/vesting options for additional years plus an opt out but doubt it was the same deal from a guaranteed money/years standpoint.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby DiceMan4221 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:29 am

MWV wrote:How long would the Arrieta saga have to drag out for the Cubs to lose a compensatory draft pick?

You would think that a team wouldn't be punished for offering a qualified offer to a guy whom no one else seemed to want, right? Oh well.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Cubswin11 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:33 am

MWV wrote:How long would the Arrieta saga have to drag out for the Cubs to lose a compensatory draft pick?

I don't know what it is under the current rules but I want to say under the old roles when there could be tiered A/B compensation it was sometime in June (probably right around draft time) the draft pick compensation went away for signing a guy. I remember a guy back then holding out/nobody offering him anything until that point. It wasn't a guy as good as Jake and was like a relief pitcher or fringe infield starter I want to say. I could just be imagining all this but something like that sticks out in my mind.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby David » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:41 am

Andy wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:
UMFan83 wrote:Sounds like Theo made one last call to Jake’s contingent before finalizing the Yu deal. Reportedly he asked if Jake would be willing to accept a similar deal and was told no.

Where did you see this? Interested to read the article. Wouldn’t be surprised if Jake waits in to Spring at this point and wait for an injury

Heyman wrote about it. He's definitely the guy that supposedly said he'd be willing to wait into the season


Heyman? This is probably Boras trying to shut down the "What's wrong with Jake that the Cubs weren't even interested" story line
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Cubswin11 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:45 am

David wrote:
Andy wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:Where did you see this? Interested to read the article. Wouldn’t be surprised if Jake waits in to Spring at this point and wait for an injury

Heyman wrote about it. He's definitely the guy that supposedly said he'd be willing to wait into the season


Heyman? This is probably Boras trying to shut down the "What's wrong with Jake that the Cubs weren't even interested" story line

Forgot about the source of this too. It absolutely could be Boras using Heyman to spread fake news, Heyman was called out last week for reporting something on JD Martinez having a comparable deal from the D'backs that the Red Sox had offered and was shot down as being a Boras mouthpiece and that not being true.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Tim » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:20 am

MWV wrote:How long would the Arrieta saga have to drag out for the Cubs to lose a compensatory draft pick?

after the draft
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby MWV » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:21 am

Tim wrote:
MWV wrote:How long would the Arrieta saga have to drag out for the Cubs to lose a compensatory draft pick?

after the draft

Thanks
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Banedon » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:43 pm

Pretty classy of Theo to offer the same deal to Jake first. I'm glad he turned it down, though.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby UK » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:01 pm

Banedon wrote:Pretty classy of Theo to offer the same deal to Jake first. I'm glad he turned it down, though.


I heard differently though. The Cubs made this their final offer to Darvish and while waiting for confirmation from his agency, got in contact with Boras to offer a similar deal to see where Arrieta is at (which ended up being rejected by Boras). Arrieta's offer on the table was more about curtailing speculation that there is something wrong with him as to why the Cubs didn't pursue him. Had Darvish rejected the offer, it might be a different story and Arrieta would be in play but not likely with what Boras is seeking.

This was about the Cubs getting a better pitcher at a cheaper rate in Darvish over Arrieta rather than some injury cover-up. Teams can look at Arrieta's drop in velo if they have injury concerns.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby craig » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:01 pm

UK wrote:
Banedon wrote:Pretty classy of Theo to offer the same deal to Jake first. I'm glad he turned it down, though.


I heard differently though. The Cubs made this their final offer to Darvish and while waiting for confirmation from his agency, got in contact with Boras to offer a similar deal to see where Arrieta is at (which ended up being rejected by Boras). Arrieta's offer on the table was more about curtailing speculation that there is something wrong with him as to why the Cubs didn't pursue him. Had Darvish rejected the offer, it might be a different story and Arrieta would be in play but not likely with what Boras is seeking.

This was about the Cubs getting a better pitcher at a cheaper rate in Darvish over Arrieta rather than some injury cover-up. Teams can look at Arrieta's drop in velo if they have injury concerns.


Not sure I'm tracking.
1. If Boras had said yes, quickly, would they have been fine with Jake? In other words, if they offered both pitchers the same offer, would they have been interchangeably fine with either guy?
2. Would they have actually preferred Jake, price being equal? In other words, they kinda knew Boras would say no, but would they have been as happy or happier to get Jake for the same money? If so, that would argue that their perception differs from a commonly held view that we ended up with the better pitcher.
3. Has price-point been the key all along? Originally we thought Cobb was a target, because he'd cost less, not necessarily because he was scouted as the best pitcher. Has Darvish/Arrieta always been about price point? (Obviously "value" is always a ratio of scouting-projection to price; I'm just wondering whether they liked Arrieta interchangeably well or perhaps a little better as a pitcher; just not enough to justify a significantly more expensive price point.)
4. Was this just a token courtesy/fishing move? Communicate to the league that they don't have problems with Arrieta, it was always just about price-point? So that if somebody else can reach an agreement, they shouldn't be worried that the Cubs secretly know there is something wrong under the hood? And maybe communicate to Jake as well that you were never disrespecting him; it was always about the agent that he'd hired just wanting more. (Jake will be back at other Conventions and be a huge part of Cubs history, so leaving on good terms might be kinda important. And you never know whether someday late in is career he might someow come back and pitch for you again....)
5. Perhaps by communicating that you've got no issues with Arrieta other than Boras's price, might that also serve Cubs draft interests if indicating such helps expedite getting him signed somewhere? An extra pick in front of the 3rd round doesn't change a whole lot I wouldn't think, but maybe it would impact a little? Maybe you plan out a little more scouting focus on guys who might fall in that range? Maybe with an extra comp pick, you've got just a little extra discretionary money, and a little more chance to consider sub-slotting there in oder to free up extra cash to superslot with 1st or 2nd picks? Probably nice to just kind of know what you're going to be working with in the draft before the scouting season kicks into full gear?
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby BigbadB » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:21 pm

Definitely feels like a statement to remove doubt that the Cubs were afraid of Arrieta's health. The Cubs offered up extensions and Jake rejected them, with the intent of looking for his big payday. I'm sure the Cubs hope he gets it, but there have not been any leaks on the Cubs showing any interest in signing Jake. If the Cubs had a big offer out to him, you know Boras would be using that offer to up the bidding from anyone else looking for pitching help. Arrieta's market has been quiet to the point of obscene.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Bryant's Disco Ball » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:04 pm

Theo never wanted Arrieta. He is just trying to drive the price up on the Brewers. Theo is 10 steps ahead of every GM.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby craig » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:26 pm

Bryant's Disco Ball wrote:Theo never wanted Arrieta. He is just trying to drive the price up on the Brewers. Theo is 10 steps ahead of every GM.


He never wanted Arrieta.... at Boras's price.

I'm not at all convinced he might not have been interested, **if** Boras would have ever wanted to talk seriously involving the types of dollars that Darvish ended up signing for. Beats me, what do I know. Maybe they didn't want Arrieta, and "we thought Boras is asking too much, he never called us to tell us otherwise" was always just an excuse to not engage. But my hypothesis has still been that they had discussions with Boras, perhaps after the season, certainly dating back over the last couple of years; that they already had an understanding of what Boras wanted and thought it was too much; and that they didn't have reason to do much talking.....: until/unless Boras was to call them back and tell them that in view of the actual market, he was ready to reconsider and reduce his asking price after all. But again, what do I know.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby UMFan83 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:33 pm

Could also be looked at as doing a solid for a Boras client. Should probably be in good graces with him before next winter.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby UK » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:43 pm

craig wrote:
UK wrote:
Banedon wrote:Pretty classy of Theo to offer the same deal to Jake first. I'm glad he turned it down, though.


I heard differently though. The Cubs made this their final offer to Darvish and while waiting for confirmation from his agency, got in contact with Boras to offer a similar deal to see where Arrieta is at (which ended up being rejected by Boras). Arrieta's offer on the table was more about curtailing speculation that there is something wrong with him as to why the Cubs didn't pursue him. Had Darvish rejected the offer, it might be a different story and Arrieta would be in play but not likely with what Boras is seeking.

This was about the Cubs getting a better pitcher at a cheaper rate in Darvish over Arrieta rather than some injury cover-up. Teams can look at Arrieta's drop in velo if they have injury concerns.


Not sure I'm tracking.
1. If Boras had said yes, quickly, would they have been fine with Jake? In other words, if they offered both pitchers the same offer, would they have been interchangeably fine with either guy?
2. Would they have actually preferred Jake, price being equal? In other words, they kinda knew Boras would say no, but would they have been as happy or happier to get Jake for the same money? If so, that would argue that their perception differs from a commonly held view that we ended up with the better pitcher.
3. Has price-point been the key all along? Originally we thought Cobb was a target, because he'd cost less, not necessarily because he was scouted as the best pitcher. Has Darvish/Arrieta always been about price point? (Obviously "value" is always a ratio of scouting-projection to price; I'm just wondering whether they liked Arrieta interchangeably well or perhaps a little better as a pitcher; just not enough to justify a significantly more expensive price point.)
4. Was this just a token courtesy/fishing move? Communicate to the league that they don't have problems with Arrieta, it was always just about price-point? So that if somebody else can reach an agreement, they shouldn't be worried that the Cubs secretly know there is something wrong under the hood? And maybe communicate to Jake as well that you were never disrespecting him; it was always about the agent that he'd hired just wanting more. (Jake will be back at other Conventions and be a huge part of Cubs history, so leaving on good terms might be kinda important. And you never know whether someday late in is career he might someow come back and pitch for you again....)
5. Perhaps by communicating that you've got no issues with Arrieta other than Boras's price, might that also serve Cubs draft interests if indicating such helps expedite getting him signed somewhere? An extra pick in front of the 3rd round doesn't change a whole lot I wouldn't think, but maybe it would impact a little? Maybe you plan out a little more scouting focus on guys who might fall in that range? Maybe with an extra comp pick, you've got just a little extra discretionary money, and a little more chance to consider sub-slotting there in oder to free up extra cash to superslot with 1st or 2nd picks? Probably nice to just kind of know what you're going to be working with in the draft before the scouting season kicks into full gear?


1) & 2) They preferred Darvish over Arrieta.

3) Price point and getting the best pitcher on the market (Darvish).

4) I think the main premise was not to kill the market for Arrieta and act in good faith to get him the best deal possible for him and also get a pick for him as you mentioned.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Bull » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:52 pm

craig wrote:
Bryant's Disco Ball wrote:Theo never wanted Arrieta. He is just trying to drive the price up on the Brewers. Theo is 10 steps ahead of every GM.


He never wanted Arrieta.... at Boras's price.

I'm not at all convinced he might not have been interested, **if** Boras would have ever wanted to talk seriously involving the types of dollars that Darvish ended up signing for. Beats me, what do I know. Maybe they didn't want Arrieta, and "we thought Boras is asking too much, he never called us to tell us otherwise" was always just an excuse to not engage. But my hypothesis has still been that they had discussions with Boras, perhaps after the season, certainly dating back over the last couple of years; that they already had an understanding of what Boras wanted and thought it was too much; and that they didn't have reason to do much talking.....: until/unless Boras was to call them back and tell them that in view of the actual market, he was ready to reconsider and reduce his asking price after all. But again, what do I know.

He’s referencing a joke form some other threads. Brewers fans think Stearns has been playing Theo.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby TBS Playoffs Insider » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:04 pm

it's called interdimensional particle-chess. Theo's playing it.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Regular Show » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:35 am

UMFan83 wrote:Could also be looked at as doing a solid for a Boras client. Should probably be in good graces with him before next winter.


Yup. The Cubs are just doing Jake a solid. Teams are really scared about signing him long-term. Very little interest and speculation right now. I doubt we offered the same deal we gave to Darvish for Arrieta.

Probably just wanted to check in one last time. I'd have no problems signing Jake to a three year deal, but that was never going to happen.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby shnsajax » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:52 am

I think Jake might get a little more than Darvish, but he wants Greinke and Boras of course is probably selling that still. He just needs to pick where he wants to live for the next 6 years. The money won’t be that much different that longer this drags out.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Backtobanks » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:43 am

shnsajax wrote:I think Jake might get a little more than Darvish, but he wants Greinke and Boras of course is probably selling that still. He just needs to pick where he wants to live for the next 6 years. The money won’t be that much different that longer this drags out.


If Jake gets more than Darvish, then Boras is a miracle worker. Also, Jake can pick where he wants to live for the next 6 years, but he won't be getting paid for that long.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Have a seat, Neifi » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:40 pm

I would be shocked if Jake gets more than Yu, at least in terms of total dollars. Could see him getting a higher AAV on something like 4/100.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby David » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:37 pm

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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Sammy Sofa » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:53 pm

Ohhhhh, so THAT'S what Trump was trying to type.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby UMFan83 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:03 pm



Shut it Kershaw
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby DiceMan4221 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:09 pm

UMFan83 wrote:https://twitter.com/McCulloughTimes/status/963458405351309312

Shut it Kershaw

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