Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Butterscup » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:18 am

i definitely get it, but it's not like theo signed him to that contract and then bragged about how he got him for less than he's actually worth. he traded for a guy who brought a contract that offered salary cap flexibility in future seasons. i suppose he could've been a bit more tactful about it, but i dont interpret it as him shoving the contract into quintana's face or anything like that
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Cubswin11 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:16 am

How long ago did Darvish switch to going strictly out of the stretch? Was is just last year? Pre or post TJ? Did he ever give a reason for doing it, was it for health? Or simplifying mechanics? I wonder if there will be any consideration to have him go back to a windup with the bases empty to help add some deception and/or improve on his stuff (which so much of it is already so elite idk if there's a ton of room for that or really a concern to make it better).

I get going out of the stretch should lead to more easily repeatable mechanics/arm slot and overall if it's more comfortable both on the body and mentally I'm fine with it.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:13 am

Butterscup wrote:i definitely get it, but it's not like theo signed him to that contract and then bragged about how he got him for less than he's actually worth. he traded for a guy who brought a contract that offered salary cap flexibility in future seasons. i suppose he could've been a bit more tactful about it, but i dont interpret it as him shoving the contract into quintana's face or anything like that


He's not, which is why I said something, like, "it's this close" to being that. Basically we all get what he's saying, and he's not actually going, "nyaaaah-nyaaaaah," but given the seemingly growing discontent among the players and the union towards team owners and FOs, it just seems like now maybe isn't the time to essentially be bragging, however tactfully, about how you were able to sign one really good pitcher because you've got another really good pitcher who is really underpaid on his current contract. Like, to the point it seems weird that Quintana was even brought up at all.
Last edited by Sammy Sofa on Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby TomtheBombadil » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:29 pm

This signing is starting to sink in...Owners winning yet again, Epstein’s [expletive] born with a silver spoon yuppie Quintana/Darvish brag (that guy can go horsefeathers a goat after that), and personal prejudice against TJ aside, the first two are rough to move past and a turnoff, this signing is so horsefeathering great. It may be even more a steal than I imagined, the only blemish on Darvish is a surgery easy to move past when talking about signing Yu Darvish. A few things keeping me optimistic about long term health even without talking about what a freak talent he himself is:

- The recency of the surgery leaves about 3-4 years of relative peace of mind

- Jim Benedict and AJ Burnett, in some ways arguably the most successful TJ surgery of all time (Burnett threw some 2200+ ML innings post-surgery, all as a SP). It’s probably nothing but Burnett and Darvish both spin the crap out of the ball, as did Liriano in his day - another guy who lasted an unusually long time as a SP post-TJ

- The offense: It cannot be stated enough how much easier this lineup makes the whole pitching nonsense for the organization, top to bottom. Any bonafide professional ML pitcher can coast in front of these guys, Lester’s made a great surgery free career doing it in front of top of the league offenses.

I also like how he has filled out his frame in the US, he might he a solid 240 these days, and speculate he has always been able to afford top of the line anything. As far as paying up for a TJ’d arm, while I hope they never do it again, this is perfect player at the perfect time. Without that surgery he is a $220+ million dollar arm and even with it the Cubs got a massive discount to the point where conceding that 6th year is a non-issue from day one.

OTOH, I really cannot stand the Quintana brag by Epstein. It was tasteless at best from a guy who is normally good enough at throwing up a humane enough public persona.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Tim » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:44 pm

Y'all are really overreacting to the Quintana statement, imo
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby CaliforniaRaisin » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:59 pm

Tim wrote:Y'all are really overreacting to the Quintana statement, imo


Yeah, it seems strange. When I heard Theo say it, I didn't take it at all negatively as a few of you have.

Theo has talked a few times about how disappointed and frustrated he's been for the players this offseason. Can't imagine many other front office types have talked like that. He's said all the right things even if he doesn't mean it.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Bobson Dugnutt » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:06 pm

well, I, personally don’t think theo should horsefeathers a goat. it’s just a weird drum to be beating at that level of specificity given the current environment.

if he made mention in broad terms about the number of young players under control for the next 3-4 years providing surplus value allowing the team to round out the roster with three big contracts, I wouldn’t have really thought twice about it. and I’m sure there’s no friction or anything and I don’t think it’s a big deal. it’s just struck me as kind of funny to me to focus specifically on Quintana in his comments multiple times now is all. “thanks to Jose for pitching on a dirt cheap contract, we were able to give Yu Darvish a truckload of money!”

not that I’m not thrilled to have quintana on that contract or anything.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Bryant's Disco Ball » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:13 pm

Tim wrote:Y'all are really overreacting to the Quintana statement, imo


Finally, somebody said it.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby 17 Seconds » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:15 pm

only tom's response was an overreaction. i thought the same thing as sammy sofa when i first read the quote. it was a little inappropriate.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Bobson Dugnutt » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:15 pm

CaliforniaRaisin wrote:
Tim wrote:Y'all are really overreacting to the Quintana statement, imo


Yeah, it seems strange. When I heard Theo say it, I didn't take it at all negatively as a few of you have.

Theo has talked a few times about how disappointed and frustrated he's been for the players this offseason. Can't imagine many other front office types have talked like that. He's said all the right things even if he doesn't mean it.


I mean, I think Theo enjoys giving fans some insight/education into the decision making process and strategy involved in the transactions they make, and this was just an opportunity to circle back and talk again about why the quintana trade was such a good one for the cubs even though they had to surrender pretty serious prospect talent. his comments yesterday close the loop by showing exactly how the quintana deal afforded the cubs the ability to make another significant move for a pitcher. I get all that.

I don’t think what he said is incredibly scandalous or anything... I was mostly kidding. Jose agreed to that contract when he was under no obligation to do so, and it wasn’t Theo that made the deal. It just struck me as kind of funny given the state of things is all.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby David » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:26 pm

David wrote:It doesn't really take a ton of mental gymnastics to believe he truthfully was the top priority, in some sense. High end starting pitching was the obvious area of need and he was the best one available. Whether they thought they could afford him is kind of irrelevant as far as priority. And they were always gonna do their due diligence on him.


Theo basically just said exactly this on Mully and Hanley.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:27 pm

Bobson Dugnutt wrote:
CaliforniaRaisin wrote:
Tim wrote:Y'all are really overreacting to the Quintana statement, imo


Yeah, it seems strange. When I heard Theo say it, I didn't take it at all negatively as a few of you have.

Theo has talked a few times about how disappointed and frustrated he's been for the players this offseason. Can't imagine many other front office types have talked like that. He's said all the right things even if he doesn't mean it.


I mean, I think Theo enjoys giving fans some insight/education into the decision making process and strategy involved in the transactions they make, and this was just an opportunity to circle back and talk again about why the quintana trade was such a good one for the cubs even though they had to surrender pretty serious prospect talent. his comments yesterday close the loop by showing exactly how the quintana deal afforded the cubs the ability to make another significant move for a pitcher. I get all that.

I don’t think what he said is incredibly scandalous or anything... I was mostly kidding. Jose agreed to that contract when he was under no obligation to do so, and it wasn’t Theo that made the deal. It just struck me as kind of funny given the state of things is all.


Exactly. I mean, I'm assuming he was addressing something brought up in a question asked of him, right? Otherwise why even bring up Quintana in that context?
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby UK » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:29 pm

David wrote:
David wrote:It doesn't really take a ton of mental gymnastics to believe he truthfully was the top priority, in some sense. High end starting pitching was the obvious area of need and he was the best one available. Whether they thought they could afford him is kind of irrelevant as far as priority. And they were always gonna do their due diligence on him.


Theo basically just said exactly this on Mully and Hanley.


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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby David » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:31 pm

UK wrote:
David wrote:
David wrote:It doesn't really take a ton of mental gymnastics to believe he truthfully was the top priority, in some sense. High end starting pitching was the obvious area of need and he was the best one available. Whether they thought they could afford him is kind of irrelevant as far as priority. And they were always gonna do their due diligence on him.


Theo basically just said exactly this on Mully and Hanley.


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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:38 pm

I'd feel the Quintana comments come off worse if he would have been FA eligible but was getting like 5 mil a year, or if he were just 1st year arb eligible or something. He signed an extension after his first good season in the big leagues that even with his best possible outcome realized, will cost him about 25 million or so. That's a perfectly fine trade off to make for a SP of all people, and especially considering he'd still be arbitration eligible without the extension, it's hard for me to get too worked up about Quintana feeling like a pawn.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby TomtheBombadil » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:44 pm

For me it’s mentioning Quintana at all that was disappointing.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:51 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:I'd feel the Quintana comments come off worse if he would have been FA eligible but was getting like 5 mil a year, or if he were just 1st year arb eligible or something. He signed an extension after his first good season in the big leagues that even with his best possible outcome realized, will cost him about 25 million or so. That's a perfectly fine trade off to make for a SP of all people, and especially considering he'd still be arbitration eligible without the extension, it's hard for me to get too worked up about Quintana feeling like a pawn.


Look, I know a lot of you think being a baseball robot is the thing that all the cool kids do, but it's more than a little odd to be talking about how you could afford the guy you just signed because the guy you traded for the year before is on a VERY team-friendly deal. Like, everyone knows it's true and he's right, but it just seems like one of those things where you don't talk it up to the press. What's the point?
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby craig » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:52 pm

CaliforniaRaisin wrote:
Tim wrote:Y'all are really overreacting to the Quintana statement, imo


Yeah, it seems strange. When I heard Theo say it, I didn't take it at all negatively as a few of you have.

Theo has talked a few times about how disappointed and frustrated he's been for the players this offseason. Can't imagine many other front office types have talked like that. He's said all the right things even if he doesn't mean it.


That was a pretty long press conference. I didn't hear the whole thing (wish I had).

But yeah, just what I'd read or heard in clip, I didn't take it all negatively, bad taste, braggy, inappropriate.

I think it's a great insight into the interconnectedness of management decisions. I admit I was not that sure the Eloy/Q trade was wise at the time. I knew Q's contract was good, but I don't think I appreciated then that might help enable an offseason like this. So as a fan, I think it was a very helpful, and straightforward insight, by Theo. If explaining some of the management logic comes across as braggy, it didn't to me.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby craig » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:54 pm

has anybody found a link to the full press conference? I think it touched on much beyond Darvish, no?
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby David » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:55 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:I'd feel the Quintana comments come off worse if he would have been FA eligible but was getting like 5 mil a year, or if he were just 1st year arb eligible or something. He signed an extension after his first good season in the big leagues that even with his best possible outcome realized, will cost him about 25 million or so. That's a perfectly fine trade off to make for a SP of all people, and especially considering he'd still be arbitration eligible without the extension, it's hard for me to get too worked up about Quintana feeling like a pawn.


Look, I know a lot of you think being a baseball robot is the thing that all the cool kids do, but it's more than a little odd to be talking about how you could afford the guy you just signed because the guy you traded for the year before is on a VERY team-friendly deal. Like, everyone knows it's true and he's right, but it just seems like one of those things where you don't talk it up to the press. What's the point?


i don't think everyone knows it's true and i generally like how theo's transparency and ability to explain his processes has made the local media and some fans a little less stupid.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Bryant's Disco Ball » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:56 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:I'd feel the Quintana comments come off worse if he would have been FA eligible but was getting like 5 mil a year, or if he were just 1st year arb eligible or something. He signed an extension after his first good season in the big leagues that even with his best possible outcome realized, will cost him about 25 million or so. That's a perfectly fine trade off to make for a SP of all people, and especially considering he'd still be arbitration eligible without the extension, it's hard for me to get too worked up about Quintana feeling like a pawn.


Look, I know a lot of you think being a baseball robot is the thing that all the cool kids do, but it's more than a little odd to be talking about how you could afford the guy you just signed because the guy you traded for the year before is on a VERY team-friendly deal. Like, everyone knows it's true and he's right, but it just seems like one of those things where you don't talk it up to the press. What's the point?


I'm surprised people that are a bit upset about the Q thing aren't mentioning Theo saying essentially that Yu's World Series meltdown gave the Cubs an opportunity to be a contender for Yu because they would be able to get him at a better price.
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Bryant's Disco Ball » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:58 pm

Also, although I could be wrong, I'm pretty sure Theo talked about Q's great contract when we traded for him, too.
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Not saying it will happen, but the Cubs coming back from a 3-1 deficit to win the World Series does seem like the appropriate way to cap off this season and make the 30-for-30 even better.

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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Bobson Dugnutt » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:10 pm

Bryant's Disco Ball wrote:Also, although I could be wrong, I'm pretty sure Theo talked about Q's great contract when we traded for him, too.


he did. so?
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby Bryant's Disco Ball » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:18 pm

Bobson Dugnutt wrote:
Bryant's Disco Ball wrote:Also, although I could be wrong, I'm pretty sure Theo talked about Q's great contract when we traded for him, too.


he did. so?


So why didn't people have a problem with it then like they do now?
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Re: Darvish to Cubs, 6/$126 Million + Incentives

Postby UMFan83 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:28 pm

Interesting info about the Cubs recruiting Darvish from his agent:

https://www.fanragsports.com/news/yu-da ... o-alabama/

Apparently, the Cubs did a phenomenal job recruiting Darvish, who also drew interest from the likes of the New York Yankees, Los Angeles Dodgers and Texas Rangers.

“The Cubs — they know how to recruit a player,” said Darvish’s agent Joel Wolfe, according to Patrick Mooney of The Athletic. “It’s like the University of Alabama. They go the extra mile.”

Wolfe said that Chicago’s presentation wasn’t just about baseball; it was about why and how Darvish would thrive in the Windy City in general.

“It was very much like a high school football player trying to choose and he’s going to have the signing day,” he said. “Here’s what we have to offer you and your family as a place to live. This is what our organization is like. Here’s what we’re going to do with you. We think you’re a great pitcher, but here’s how we’re going to make you better. Here’s what we’ve done with other guys. This is exactly how we’re going to do it. Incredible detail.


Wolfe says that what clinched Darvish’s decision was how Cubs general manager Theo Epstein handled things.

“With all the offers getting very close together, we had to make a decision,” said Wolfe. “One thing that Theo said to him and to me right before was, ‘You’ve been traded. You understand what it’s like going to a new team. I want you to have the opportunity to come in here on Day 1. When you sign, there’s going to be all this talk about your contract, blah blah blah, but I want you to be able to — from Day 1 — just be a guy on the team.’”


I'm not really sure what he's trying to say in that last blurb that would make the Cubs stand out.
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