Martin Maldonado to Cubs

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby We Got The Whole 9 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:05 pm

Tim wrote:
We Got The Whole 9 wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:
Are you talking about Willson Contreras? The converted infielder who has been the primary catcher the past four years? You are disappointed they handed the keys to him, 4 years ago? Four years they've largely spent in 1st place and been among the best teams in baseball. That disappoints you?


I don't really like him as a catcher and our pitching has degraded each year hes been our fulltime catcher. So, yes. He's had the keys. But they have an opportunity to hand those keys to a better defender. So I'll rephrase and say that I'll be disappointed if he retains those keys.

by pretty much every account I've ever read, the guy works his ass off to get better and is very open to instruction. I'd be interested in where you are getting your info that he has no "desire" to improve. Or admit that's [expletive] and what you really mean to say is that he simply hasn't gotten better at that aspect of the game.


I cant find the quote but he said, 'a ball is a ball and a strike is a strike, I dont really care about that' when asked about his pitch framing. I believe this happened after his argument with Flowers. The proof is in the pudding. Hes not climbed out of the bottom 3 in 3 years. His setup remains poor, his glove is loud, the numbers back it up.
Last edited by We Got The Whole 9 on Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby We Got The Whole 9 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:09 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
We Got The Whole 9 wrote:I don't really like him as a catcher and our pitching has degraded each year hes been our fulltime catcher.


Team ERA- by year:

2017: 91 - T-4th in NL
2018: 91 - T-2nd in NL
2019: 93 - 4th in NL


KBB (where framing really shows, IMO)

2016: 2.91
2017: 2.60
2018: 2.14
2019: 2.53
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby Tryptamine » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:14 pm

Unless Caratini is on the move or Contreras is primarily going to the OF I just don't get it at all. With as weak as this bench is already they simply can't afford to roster 3 catchers, especially when one is of the no hit variety. There's already enough offensive black holes. Not to mention that it was an overpay, but I don't particularly care about that since Montgomery was barely seeing the mound anyways.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:15 pm

We Got The Whole 9 wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
We Got The Whole 9 wrote:I don't really like him as a catcher and our pitching has degraded each year hes been our fulltime catcher.


Team ERA- by year:

2017: 91 - T-4th in NL
2018: 91 - T-2nd in NL
2019: 93 - 4th in NL


KBB (where framing really shows, IMO)

2016: 2.91
2017: 2.60
2018: 2.14
2019: 2.53


1) how is this showing a progressive degradation
2) focusing on raw K/BB as evidence of the progression/regression of a catcher's impact on a pitching staff is profoundly bad logic
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby jersey cubs fan » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:17 pm

Tryptamine wrote:Unless Caratini is on the move or Contreras is primarily going to the OF I just don't get it at all. With as weak as this bench is already they simply can't afford to roster 3 catchers, especially when one is of the no hit variety. There's already enough offensive black holes. Not to mention that it was an overpay, but I don't particularly care about that since Montgomery was barely seeing the mound anyways.


every bench player is already effectively a no hit catcher so why not get a real one?
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:25 pm

As far as the trade itself goes, lots of folks have made these thoughts, but in no particular order:

- Contreras might be out for an extended period, although early reports are this is unlikely
- Caratini might be on his way out the door in another trade, which would be good business, IMO
- Maldonado is a playoff-oriented addition, he's not going to be much of a pinch hitter but he's able to fill that Ross gap in a way that Caratini can't. Especially on a playoff roster, you can use a defensive catching replacement easier than you can use your 5th best pinch hitter
- Montgomery has fallen out of favor with the team. He's having a bad year, he's not particularly young or far from FA any longer, even at his best he was never murder on LHP which means his primary value is as a swingman, which the team already has Chatwood and Alzolay to help with(plus more help in future seasons from the farm than in the past)

I think it's probably a pretty proportional combination of those 4 factors.
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby squally1313 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:25 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:
Tryptamine wrote:Unless Caratini is on the move or Contreras is primarily going to the OF I just don't get it at all. With as weak as this bench is already they simply can't afford to roster 3 catchers, especially when one is of the no hit variety. There's already enough offensive black holes. Not to mention that it was an overpay, but I don't particularly care about that since Montgomery was barely seeing the mound anyways.


every bench player is already effectively a no hit catcher so why not get a real one?


Agreed. We're only going to be about a month out from expanded rosters when Contreras comes back (if you're optimistic about his injury, which I'm not). For that month, Caratini becomes your top bat off the bench who you can use freely, instead of worrying about burning your backup catcher. Plus, as has been pointed out, we were one catcher injury away from putting Taylor Davis on a postseason roster (and there are no more August trades). This gives you flexibility on the injury, pinch hitting, trading Caratini, etc.
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby Banedon » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:29 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:As far as the trade itself goes, lots of folks have made these thoughts, but in no particular order:

- Contreras might be out for an extended period, although early reports are this is unlikely
- Caratini might be on his way out the door in another trade, which would be good business, IMO
- Maldonado is a playoff-oriented addition, he's not going to be much of a pinch hitter but he's able to fill that Ross gap in a way that Caratini can't. Especially on a playoff roster, you can use a defensive catching replacement easier than you can use your 5th best pinch hitter
- Montgomery has fallen out of favor with the team. He's having a bad year, he's not particularly young or far from FA any longer, even at his best he was never murder on LHP which means his primary value is as a swingman, which the team already has Chatwood and Alzolay to help with(plus more help in future seasons from the farm than in the past)

I think it's probably a pretty proportional combination of those 4 factors.


And Monty always wanted to be a starter...could be that the Cubs had made him some promises to try to get him somewhere that he could do that.
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby Bertz » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:33 pm

I feel like some people have a weird obsession with balance. Willson's been the 4th best catcher in baseball this year. If he were 9th, but had positive numbers on both offense and defense, he'd get practically no criticism.
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby squally1313 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:34 pm

Additionally...Maldonado was always going to get traded to a contender. We got there first, and sorting the catchers on FG by defense, there isn't a whole out there in terms of non-prospects from non-contending teams.

Looking at the non-contenders, you have Hedges, Posey, Danny Jansen, Alfaro, Carson Kelly all as prospects. Then you hit Maldanado. Then you get to Barnhart, Wolters, and Maile, who are all hitting as bad, if not worse, than Maldanado (without nearly the track record). Everyone wants the veteran backup catcher...we might have gotten the best one available. Which, I'm aware isn't saying much, but it's something.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby David » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:32 pm

Tim wrote:
We Got The Whole 9 wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:
Are you talking about Willson Contreras? The converted infielder who has been the primary catcher the past four years? You are disappointed they handed the keys to him, 4 years ago? Four years they've largely spent in 1st place and been among the best teams in baseball. That disappoints you?


I don't really like him as a catcher and our pitching has degraded each year hes been our fulltime catcher. So, yes. He's had the keys. But they have an opportunity to hand those keys to a better defender. So I'll rephrase and say that I'll be disappointed if he retains those keys.

by pretty much every account I've ever read, the guy works his ass off to get better and is very open to instruction. I'd be interested in where you are getting your info that he has no "desire" to improve. Or admit that's [expletive] and what you really mean to say is that he simply hasn't gotten better at that aspect of the game.


i mean that's not exactly true. i'm a huge fan of willson and don't really care about stuff like this but he flat out admitted he got comfortable last year, blew off his training, and figured he could just show up and play well.

like i said, i don't really care about it. he's a human being and human beings do horsefeathers like that. god knows i do. i just felt like that was over the top praise for his prep given what he himself said.
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby Banedon » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:39 pm

Banedon wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:As far as the trade itself goes, lots of folks have made these thoughts, but in no particular order:

- Contreras might be out for an extended period, although early reports are this is unlikely
- Caratini might be on his way out the door in another trade, which would be good business, IMO
- Maldonado is a playoff-oriented addition, he's not going to be much of a pinch hitter but he's able to fill that Ross gap in a way that Caratini can't. Especially on a playoff roster, you can use a defensive catching replacement easier than you can use your 5th best pinch hitter
- Montgomery has fallen out of favor with the team. He's having a bad year, he's not particularly young or far from FA any longer, even at his best he was never murder on LHP which means his primary value is as a swingman, which the team already has Chatwood and Alzolay to help with(plus more help in future seasons from the farm than in the past)

I think it's probably a pretty proportional combination of those 4 factors.


And Monty always wanted to be a starter...could be that the Cubs had made him some promises to try to get him somewhere that he could do that.


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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby Tryptamine » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:24 pm

Banedon wrote:
Banedon wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:As far as the trade itself goes, lots of folks have made these thoughts, but in no particular order:

- Contreras might be out for an extended period, although early reports are this is unlikely
- Caratini might be on his way out the door in another trade, which would be good business, IMO
- Maldonado is a playoff-oriented addition, he's not going to be much of a pinch hitter but he's able to fill that Ross gap in a way that Caratini can't. Especially on a playoff roster, you can use a defensive catching replacement easier than you can use your 5th best pinch hitter
- Montgomery has fallen out of favor with the team. He's having a bad year, he's not particularly young or far from FA any longer, even at his best he was never murder on LHP which means his primary value is as a swingman, which the team already has Chatwood and Alzolay to help with(plus more help in future seasons from the farm than in the past)

I think it's probably a pretty proportional combination of those 4 factors.


And Monty always wanted to be a starter...could be that the Cubs had made him some promises to try to get him somewhere that he could do that.




So basically it was a start me or trade me. Doesn't seem like a lot of layers to me.
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:29 pm

Montgomery's been saying 'I want to start' for 2 and a half years, the idea he forced a move in the midst of his worst season as a Cub seems really unlikely.
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby Jaxbro » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:37 pm

Maldonado gets the start tonight
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby champaignchris » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:43 pm

Jaxbro wrote:Maldonado gets the start tonight


I would assume he’s going to start most games until Contreras gets back. It’ll be more interesting what happens when Contreras gets off the IL.

As for this trade... I would have wanted something sexier than 60 or 70 games of a defense-first backup catcher for Montgomery. I’m really curious to see how Monty performs when given a consistent starting role.
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby Post Count Padder » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:24 pm

I've thought about this trade more......and I'm still annoyed we sold so low on Monty for a backup catcher we could've had for $2 million in the offseason.

I'm not questioning that Maldonado fits an important need, and is good to have with Willy on the IL. And I figured we'd be trading Monty anyway. But this feels like a short-sighted overpay.
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby GaryWoods » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:28 pm

Ding Dong Johnson wrote:Gross.


I don't think Greg Gross is playing anymore. Great pinch hitter, though. Hit .322 for the Cubs in '77 with five homers. He only hit two more homers in the other 16 years he played.
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby squally1313 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:29 pm

Post Count Padder wrote:I've thought about this trade more......and I'm still annoyed we sold so low on Monty for a backup catcher we could've had for $2 million in the offseason.

I'm not questioning that Maldonado fits an important need, and is good to have with Willy on the IL. And I figured we'd be trading Monty anyway. But this feels like a short-sighted overpay.


I justify it by looking at the positive of not letting Maddon continue bringing in Monty with two guys on to face a tough lefty. In the short term, unfortunately, it probably means more Rosario (which, his entire existence continues to baffle me), but if we go into August with him and Ryan as our top lefties (or without letting Kintzler start taking those spots), then I'll just assume Theo has given up on this team.
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby Bertz » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:22 pm

Post Count Padder wrote:I've thought about this trade more......and I'm still annoyed we sold so low on Monty for a backup catcher we could've had for $2 million in the offseason.

I'm not questioning that Maldonado fits an important need, and is good to have with Willy on the IL. And I figured we'd be trading Monty anyway. But this feels like a short-sighted overpay.


I think Montgomery had more value than this, but not way more. and so ultimately it was about the softer factors:

- Having an extra roster opening in the bullpen to use on actual relievers
- Depth in case one of our top 2 guys suffers a more substantial injury
- Any sort of mentorship or whatever Martin can impart on Willson and Vic
- Doing right by Montgomery

Ultimately, they must have felt that those were worth the surplus value they just lit on fire. I don't know if they're right, but I'd guess that if they're wrong it's not by a ton.
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby Deeg » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:31 pm

muntjack wrote:
Deeg wrote:
The starting point for Merrifield would probably be Schwarber and Hoerner, and that wouldn't be enough. That's not happening.


Not attacking your point, but it's funny to me how many have written off (or are in the process of writing off) Schwarber, a pedigreed 26 year old with a career .340 wOBA/111 wRC+, and now he's being discussed as not enough to bring back a guy who at 26 hadn't reached the majors and was putting up a .308 wOBA and 81 RC+ in the Texas league.


You can say “I reject your reality and substitute my own” all you want, but that’s how things are.
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby Bryant's Disco Ball » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:43 pm

Post Count Padder wrote:I've thought about this trade more......and I'm still annoyed we sold so low on Monty for a backup catcher we could've had for $2 million in the offseason.

I'm not questioning that Maldonado fits an important need, and is good to have with Willy on the IL. And I figured we'd be trading Monty anyway. But this feels like a short-sighted overpay.


If it makes you feel better, they did try to sign him for that contract. But he picked the Royals because he didn't think he'd get to play enough for the Cubs.
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby 17 Seconds » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:54 pm

montgomery sucks. there, i said it.
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby muntjack » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:59 am

Deeg wrote:
muntjack wrote:
Deeg wrote:
The starting point for Merrifield would probably be Schwarber and Hoerner, and that wouldn't be enough. That's not happening.


Not attacking your point, but it's funny to me how many have written off (or are in the process of writing off) Schwarber, a pedigreed 26 year old with a career .340 wOBA/111 wRC+, and now he's being discussed as not enough to bring back a guy who at 26 hadn't reached the majors and was putting up a .308 wOBA and 81 RC+ in the Texas league.


You can say “I reject your reality and substitute my own” all you want, but that’s how things are.


Not rejecting your reality at all. I accept that that may very well be Schwarber's perceived value. I just disagree with that valuation.
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Re: Martin Maldonado to Cubs

Postby Deeg » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:05 am

muntjack wrote:
Deeg wrote:
muntjack wrote:
Not attacking your point, but it's funny to me how many have written off (or are in the process of writing off) Schwarber, a pedigreed 26 year old with a career .340 wOBA/111 wRC+, and now he's being discussed as not enough to bring back a guy who at 26 hadn't reached the majors and was putting up a .308 wOBA and 81 RC+ in the Texas league.


You can say “I reject your reality and substitute my own” all you want, but that’s how things are.


Not rejecting your reality at all. I accept that that may very well be Schwarber's perceived value. I just disagree with that valuation.


Fair enough.

One could counter with the fact that Schwarber has 3 WAR in his career, and Merrifield had 5.5 last season (and 2.6 so far this season).
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