2020 roster

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Re: 2020 roster

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:42 am

Gmoney23 wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:
TomtheBombadil wrote:My blow it up the budget is coming offseason:

Baez to the Angels for Jo Adell
Bryant to the Braves for Fried, Anderson, Waters, Wilson, and Wright
Contreras to the Mets for Ronny Mauricio
Schwarber to the Indians for Triston McKenzie and Bradley Zimmer
Quintana to the Marlins for low minors prospects

FAs: Russell Martin (C), Cesar Hernandez (2B), Jose Peraza (SS), various MiL deals to pitchers

C: Martin/Caratini (~$4-5 million tops)
1B: Rizzo (still cheap, but getting suspiciously older should have been looking for outs two years ago)
2B: Hernandez/Hoerner/Happ ($4-5 million tops)
SS: Peraza/Hoerner ($3 million tops)
3B: Bote ($3 million)

RF: Heyward (most of the cap space)/Zagunis/Happ
CF: Happ/Hoerner (~$2 million?)
LF: Zimmer/Happ/Zagunis

Hendricks
Lester
Darvish
Fried
Wright

There's quite a bit of money and assets spent on these 5 + Kimbrel and Chatwood, can't say the Cubs aren't trying. The great thing is that if this team isn't competing at the deadline it shouldn't be hard to trade Kimbrel, Hendricks, or even Chatwood. Maybe even Morrow can nab a top 100 guy if healthy. Unfortunately Darvish's contract might have the Cubs stuck, definitely same with Lester

Kimbrel
Chatwood
Wick
Ryan
Morrow
????
????
???
????

Give this team a couple years and they'll be just as loaded as the 2015 team was if not a little more. For the time being the org regains it's famed flexibility, replenishes a farm that is now among the best in baseball with room to get better through a deadline clean, might gain even more cap space if they ask politely for Lester to voluntarily retire, and yeah basically be one of the best teams in baseball again by 2022 or so

This is a pretty good let the MF’er burn the hell down for a few years plan. Certainly no half measures, which probably is a good thing. Pick a lane go full measures instead of being stuck in the middle.


I dont get the blow it up plans. The whole tanking till 2015 was to build a core (supposedly save $ during the tank) then use that saved $ to pay that badass core. So when this team thats averaged 94 wins.per season cost controlled core comes to FA finally then its time.for Ricketts to payup..


The point of tanking to build a core was that Epstein was bored in Boston and wanted to tank somewhere and build a core.
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby Cubswin11 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:50 am

Gmoney23 wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:
TomtheBombadil wrote:My blow it up the budget is coming offseason:

Baez to the Angels for Jo Adell
Bryant to the Braves for Fried, Anderson, Waters, Wilson, and Wright
Contreras to the Mets for Ronny Mauricio
Schwarber to the Indians for Triston McKenzie and Bradley Zimmer
Quintana to the Marlins for low minors prospects

FAs: Russell Martin (C), Cesar Hernandez (2B), Jose Peraza (SS), various MiL deals to pitchers

C: Martin/Caratini (~$4-5 million tops)
1B: Rizzo (still cheap, but getting suspiciously older should have been looking for outs two years ago)
2B: Hernandez/Hoerner/Happ ($4-5 million tops)
SS: Peraza/Hoerner ($3 million tops)
3B: Bote ($3 million)

RF: Heyward (most of the cap space)/Zagunis/Happ
CF: Happ/Hoerner (~$2 million?)
LF: Zimmer/Happ/Zagunis

Hendricks
Lester
Darvish
Fried
Wright

There's quite a bit of money and assets spent on these 5 + Kimbrel and Chatwood, can't say the Cubs aren't trying. The great thing is that if this team isn't competing at the deadline it shouldn't be hard to trade Kimbrel, Hendricks, or even Chatwood. Maybe even Morrow can nab a top 100 guy if healthy. Unfortunately Darvish's contract might have the Cubs stuck, definitely same with Lester

Kimbrel
Chatwood
Wick
Ryan
Morrow
????
????
???
????

Give this team a couple years and they'll be just as loaded as the 2015 team was if not a little more. For the time being the org regains it's famed flexibility, replenishes a farm that is now among the best in baseball with room to get better through a deadline clean, might gain even more cap space if they ask politely for Lester to voluntarily retire, and yeah basically be one of the best teams in baseball again by 2022 or so

This is a pretty good let the MF’er burn the hell down for a few years plan. Certainly no half measures, which probably is a good thing. Pick a lane go full measures instead of being stuck in the middle.


I dont get the blow it up plans. The whole tanking till 2015 was to build a core (supposedly save $ during the tank) then use that saved $ to pay that badass core. So when this team thats averaged 94 wins.per season cost controlled core comes to FA finally then its time.for Ricketts to payup..

I don’t get it either but it seems like there’s a real possibility it’s on the table as a course of action over the coming weeks/months.
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby sneakypower » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:42 pm

Bertz wrote:- Contreras+Q to SD for Margot, Munoz, and Morejon

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:- Contreras and Q for Lamet, Margot, Hedges, and Munoz

Jesus Christ
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby Andy » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:37 pm

Hairyducked Idiot wrote:
Gmoney23 wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:This is a pretty good let the MF’er burn the hell down for a few years plan. Certainly no half measures, which probably is a good thing. Pick a lane go full measures instead of being stuck in the middle.


I dont get the blow it up plans. The whole tanking till 2015 was to build a core (supposedly save $ during the tank) then use that saved $ to pay that badass core. So when this team thats averaged 94 wins.per season cost controlled core comes to FA finally then its time.for Ricketts to payup..


The point of tanking to build a core was that Epstein was bored in Boston and wanted to tank somewhere and build a core.

Which lined up well with Ricketts' desire not to spend money, which he successfully conned people into believing was part of some long-term plan to spend buckets of money later when really the plan was to spend only as much as he could get away with as a so-called big-market team.
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby Bryant's Disco Ball » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:10 pm

As I have previously wrote, we better be in the top-5 in payroll moving forward every year. The market and the popularity of this team is a huge advantage and must be utilized.

Right now, I am more disappointed that what I consider a top front office has not utilized that advantage very well at all. The $210 million or whatever being spent is just not showing up that well on the field. Hell, I'd rather Theo do most of his work through trades and smaller signings, where he seems to excel better. (Talking out of my butt there, too lazy to see if that opinion is validated through facts).

So, anyway, I think the payroll should be even HIGHER, but I can't use the money we are spending presently as an excuse for not being as good as we should be.
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Not saying it will happen, but the Cubs coming back from a 3-1 deficit to win the World Series does seem like the appropriate way to cap off this season and make the 30-for-30 even better.

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Re: 2020 roster

Postby TomtheBombadil » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:21 pm



Exciting times ahead. I hope Theo doesn't get greedy and ask for too many prospects on top of Fried, the Braves worked hard to get those guys together for their Future
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby UMFan83 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:23 pm

Bryant's Disco Ball wrote:As I have previously wrote, we better be in the top-5 in payroll moving forward every year. The market and the popularity of this team is a huge advantage and must be utilized.

Right now, I am more disappointed that what I consider a top front office has not utilized that advantage very well at all. The $210 million or whatever being spent is just not showing up that well on the field. Hell, I'd rather Theo do most of his work through trades and smaller signings, where he seems to excel better. (Talking out of my butt there, too lazy to see if that opinion is validated through facts).

So, anyway, I think the payroll should be even HIGHER, but I can't use the money we are spending presently as an excuse for not being as good as we should be.


Yes, I think its a perfectly reasonable take to be angry at ownership for limiting payroll but also to call out the front office for not getting a return on the money they spent. It really sucks that in 2015 we had a ridiculous number of high end prospects and a ton of money to spend and this is where we ended up. I really hope the behind the scenes hirings by the FO fix whatever sort of malice that has infected the organization
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby David » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:34 pm

UMFan83 wrote:It really sucks that in 2015 we had a ridiculous number of high end prospects and a ton of money to spend and this is where we ended up.


a historic and as-fun-as-you-could-possibly-script world series and 3 straight nlcs appearances and 4 seasons of 90+ wins (including a 95, a 97, and a 103) in a row? yeah, ok, sulley. it was a really horsefeathers outcome we got out of that.
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby TomtheBombadil » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:38 pm

It sucks more that bottoming out to 84 wins 3 years after a WS win is treated like some catastrophic situation, proof of how over the hill the Cubs are, while Friedman and the Dodgers get treated like some juggernaut who only don't win it all because Freidman can't do everything himself or whatever that garbage tale is
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby UMFan83 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:43 pm

David wrote:
UMFan83 wrote:It really sucks that in 2015 we had a ridiculous number of high end prospects and a ton of money to spend and this is where we ended up.


a historic and as-fun-as-you-could-possibly-script world series and 3 straight nlcs appearances and 4 seasons of 90+ wins (including a 95, a 97, and a 103) in a row? yeah, ok, sulley. it was a really horsefeathers outcome we got out of that.


thats not what im referring to. I'm saying the position we were in circa 2015 with all the prospects and financial flexibility and this is where we're at now with a mediocre farm and no payroll space and a roster whose best players are 2 years from FA.

The in between was amazing and the rebuild has been a success by every measure.
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby David » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:46 pm



caption translates roughly/clunkily to: more than to ask you for, i have a great deal to thank you for, my god

Mas que pedirte, tengo muchísimo que agradecerte mi Dios
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby TomtheBombadil » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:47 pm

UMFan83 wrote:thats not what im referring to. I'm saying the position we were in circa 2015 with all the prospects and financial flexibility and this is where we're at now with a mediocre farm and no payroll space and a roster whose best players are 2 years from FA.

The in between was amazing and the rebuild has been a success by every measure.


aka 324 regular season baseball games over two ML seasons including two playoffs that will end with a champion series apiece

How is this treated as bad, something to run away from, and not something that was always going to happen that everyone knew about going in?
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby David » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:53 pm

TomtheBombadil wrote:
UMFan83 wrote:thats not what im referring to. I'm saying the position we were in circa 2015 with all the prospects and financial flexibility and this is where we're at now with a mediocre farm and no payroll space and a roster whose best players are 2 years from FA.

The in between was amazing and the rebuild has been a success by every measure.


aka 324 regular season baseball games over two ML seasons including two playoffs that will end with a champion series apiece

How is this treated as bad, something to run away from, and not something that was always going to happen that everyone knew about going in?


right the main thing was foolishly not expecting PTR to cry poor again
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:55 pm

Contreras is a master vaguetweeter(or instagrammer), truly world class
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby sneakypower » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:01 pm

-3 years of outright forfeit
-4 years of success
-4+ years of rebuilding, roster restoration
-??

WS is undeniably great but we also need to accept that ownership is content to ride that goodwill as far as possible
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby ConstableRabbit » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:02 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:Contreras is a master vaguetweeter(or instagrammer), truly world class

Especially when he told a porn star that he was a big fan of hers. What does it all mean?!?
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby UMFan83 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:05 pm

TomtheBombadil wrote:
UMFan83 wrote:thats not what im referring to. I'm saying the position we were in circa 2015 with all the prospects and financial flexibility and this is where we're at now with a mediocre farm and no payroll space and a roster whose best players are 2 years from FA.

The in between was amazing and the rebuild has been a success by every measure.


aka 324 regular season baseball games over two ML seasons including two playoffs that will end with a champion series apiece

How is this treated as bad, something to run away from, and not something that was always going to happen that everyone knew about going in?


It's not bad, its just another example of resources deteriorating in value as they get closer to FA.
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:09 pm

sneakypower wrote:-3 years of outright forfeit
-4 years of success
-4+ years of rebuilding, roster restoration
-??

WS is undeniably great but we also need to accept that ownership is content to ride that goodwill as far as possible


Trading good players and continuing to compete are not mutually exclusive ideas. That's doubly true in the case of someone like Contreras whose exact level of contributions are more debatable than say an outfielder.
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:10 pm

ConstableRabbit wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:Contreras is a master vaguetweeter(or instagrammer), truly world class

Especially when he told a porn star that he was a big fan of hers. What does it all mean?!?


There were generic smilies involved, he's still a man of mystery
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:11 pm

Reminder that playoffs are crapshoots and that winning a WS is incredibly important to how much fun we had but irrelevant to measuring the quality of the front office’s performance.
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby TomtheBombadil » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:15 pm

UMFan83 wrote:It's not bad, its just another example of resources deteriorating in value as they get closer to FA.


This sounds bad and as mean/evil as anything the owners might say (resources? assets? deteriorating in value? Jeebus, are sports training people to be bizness evil? We're talking about 27-28 year old people! People who are really good or better at their jobs! What more can be asked!?)

sneakypower wrote:WS is undeniably great but we also need to accept that ownership is content to ride that goodwill as far as possible


Agreed, and "as possible" seems to have been three mostly boring seasons before unrest and anxiety set in and the narratives and coverage really started to change. How much more time really do they have before the lack of urgency, I see the post-2016 Cubs as opportunistic buyers than straight up buyers mostly interested in maintaining the pitching staff with survivable contracts, starts to hit the bottom line?!
Last edited by TomtheBombadil on Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby sneakypower » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:16 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
sneakypower wrote:-3 years of outright forfeit
-4 years of success
-4+ years of rebuilding, roster restoration
-??

WS is undeniably great but we also need to accept that ownership is content to ride that goodwill as far as possible


Trading good players and continuing to compete are not mutually exclusive ideas. That's doubly true in the case of someone like Contreras whose exact level of contributions are more debatable than say an outfielder.

in these circumstances, they basically are though

like if you trade Bryant for some hot prospects and use the savings toward Rendon or whatever, sure, but we're just inevitably setting sail 5 wins in hopes that one day we'll get some return as Cristian Pache develops into a nice, affordably cheap, Chris B. Young
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby UMFan83 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:23 pm

TomtheBombadil wrote:
UMFan83 wrote:It's not bad, its just another example of resources deteriorating in value as they get closer to FA.


This sounds bad and as mean/evil as anything the owners might say (resources? assets? deteriorating in value? Jeebus, are sports training people to be bizness evil? We're talking about 27-28 year old people! People who are really good or better at their jobs! What more can be asked!?)


thats a bizarre tangent to take this discussion but ok.
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:25 pm

sneakypower wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
sneakypower wrote:-3 years of outright forfeit
-4 years of success
-4+ years of rebuilding, roster restoration
-??

WS is undeniably great but we also need to accept that ownership is content to ride that goodwill as far as possible


Trading good players and continuing to compete are not mutually exclusive ideas. That's doubly true in the case of someone like Contreras whose exact level of contributions are more debatable than say an outfielder.

in these circumstances, they basically are though

like if you trade Bryant for some hot prospects and use the savings toward Rendon or whatever, sure, but we're just inevitably setting sail 5 wins in hopes that one day we'll get some return as Cristian Pache develops into a nice affordably cheap Chris B. Young


Bryant yes, because he's a 5+ win star. I indulged the idea yesterday(partially as a defense mechanism and partially because I do enjoy rosterbation), but to be clear my real thoughts are here: viewtopic.php?p=384016#p384016

Bryant trades that:

Make the Cubs better in the short term: almost literally impossible
Make the Cubs better in the long term but worse in the short term: incredibly stupid given the roster, functionally punts the season
Make the Cubs better in the long term and comparable in the short term: basically impossible given how his salary and team control limit suitors/willingness to give a mega package



Contreras(and Schwarber and anyone lower on the roster) don't have as high a bar to clear, and it also depends on what you get. We're seeing the right prospects adapt to MLB quicker than ever, and when you're dealing with pitching the variance goes in both directions.
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Re: 2020 roster

Postby TomtheBombadil » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:27 pm

UMFan83 wrote:thats a bizarre tangent to take this discussion but ok.


Sorry, just think it's a weird way to talk about people similar to when that one guy at the Futures Game refers to players as "property of" some team...Pet peeve I guess, but it seems like where the language is going among civilized so-ciety, and I see it as playing into the hands of the They...Yeah I am making this weird sorry lol
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