White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby Backtobanks » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:38 pm

squally1313 wrote:This pretty much eliminates any desire I have to trade Contreras.



Any talk of the Cubs trading Contreras and paying Grandal what he wanted was only in the minds of some posters. With limited funds and many holes to fill, adding to a position of power wasn't going to happen.
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby Bull » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:42 pm

squally1313 wrote:
TomtheBombadil wrote:
Tryptamine wrote:
I don't know why. I'm really not sure there's any production drop off from Contreras to Caratini/Chirinos.


OTOH trading Contreras to sign Chirinos is pretty pointless. Chirinos probably isn't a worthwhile upgrade on defense and his 2020 salary will probably be higher than Contreras'


I mean, if you ignore what you would be receiving in return for Contreras, sure.

Regardless of that, I'm still betting on Contreras vs a combination along those lines. Neither of those two really strike me as a dynamic starter, and I'm not aware of some big platoon splits that would lead into getting the best out of both of them.


What you could get for contreras minus what you could get for caratini.
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:07 pm

TomtheBombadil wrote:To call a FA C the Cubs might show interest in post-Contreras: Russell Martin...Might be had at $4 million (Dodgers paid him $3.6) and he fits the defense first veteran C thing. Also hits that sweet spot of getting a pretty high profile player to play a low profile role on a good team


Martin feels like a good fallback option since he's still a solid defender and his bat is at least playable against LHP. I'd rather explore other options at this point, personally I'd be most interested in Castro of the FAs.
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby squally1313 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:07 pm

Backtobanks wrote:
squally1313 wrote:This pretty much eliminates any desire I have to trade Contreras.



Any talk of the Cubs trading Contreras and paying Grandal what he wanted was only in the minds of some posters. With limited funds and many holes to fill, adding to a position of power wasn't going to happen.


I'm with you on the limited funds thing, but diverging on the second point because the catcher position without Contreras is definitely not a position of power.
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby TomtheBombadil » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:32 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
TomtheBombadil wrote:To call a FA C the Cubs might show interest in post-Contreras: Russell Martin...Might be had at $4 million (Dodgers paid him $3.6) and he fits the defense first veteran C thing. Also hits that sweet spot of getting a pretty high profile player to play a low profile role on a good team


Martin feels like a good fallback option since he's still a solid defender and his bat is at least playable against LHP. I'd rather explore other options at this point, personally I'd be most interested in Castro of the FAs.


I don't disagree, Castro's the rare LHH catcher and was a top framer
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby Cubswin11 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:35 pm

Castro, Chirinos and Martin are all about the same to me, I can find something to like about any of them. I’d probably go with whoever comes cheaper and doesn’t take more than 2 years guaranteed.
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby TomtheBombadil » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:37 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:Castro, Chirinos and Martin are all about the same to me, I can find something to like about any of them. I’d probably go with whoever comes cheaper and doesn’t take more than 2 years guaranteed.


Yeah but we know that the team's shopping for more upside defensively which Chirinos doesn't really check...The other two have been top of the league framers at their best, Chirinos peaked at about average, and also have some bat
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby Cubswin11 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:45 pm

TomtheBombadil wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:Castro, Chirinos and Martin are all about the same to me, I can find something to like about any of them. I’d probably go with whoever comes cheaper and doesn’t take more than 2 years guaranteed.


Yeah but we know that the team's shopping for more upside defensively which Chirinos doesn't really check...The other two have been top of the league framers at their best, Chirinos peaked at about average, and also have some bat

Sure. But if we believe whoever is added is more the backup and Vic is getting ~115 starts, Chirinos brings a lefty mashing bat which we know is also something we need to address.
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby TomtheBombadil » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:51 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:Sure. But if we believe whoever is added is more the backup and Vic is getting ~115 starts, Chirinos brings a lefty mashing bat which we know is also something we need to address.


- I don't think it's anywhere near consensus that whoever is added is the backup, Caratini doesn't have that kind of pull
- Nothing about making the AS bat first catcher available for trade says they're looking to solve the offense's problems through C
- Lefty mashing bat is a very clearly an OF thing
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby d_money » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:52 pm

Tyler Davis is waiting in the wings at Iowa:).
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby Bertz » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:56 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:Castro, Chirinos and Martin are all about the same to me, I can find something to like about any of them. I’d probably go with whoever comes cheaper and doesn’t take more than 2 years guaranteed.


Your mileage may vary, but I think Travis D'Arnaud and Yan Gomes fit into this cohort as well. D'Arnaud is actually my favorite since he's the best contact guy of the group and huge a lefty killer, so there's a very natural playing time decision between him and Vic.
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby Cubswin11 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:02 pm

TomtheBombadil wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:Sure. But if we believe whoever is added is more the backup and Vic is getting ~115 starts, Chirinos brings a lefty mashing bat which we know is also something we need to address.


- I don't think it's anywhere near consensus that whoever is added is the backup, Caratini doesn't have that kind of pull
- Nothing about making the AS bat first catcher available for trade says they're looking to solve the offense's problems through C
- Lefty mashing bat is a very clearly an OF thing

There doesn’t seem to be any real options out there that fit this profile that we’d realistically be in on. Listen I’m fine going another direction than Chirinos but he does bring something to help the overall composition of the team.
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:17 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:
TomtheBombadil wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:Castro, Chirinos and Martin are all about the same to me, I can find something to like about any of them. I’d probably go with whoever comes cheaper and doesn’t take more than 2 years guaranteed.


Yeah but we know that the team's shopping for more upside defensively which Chirinos doesn't really check...The other two have been top of the league framers at their best, Chirinos peaked at about average, and also have some bat

Sure. But if we believe whoever is added is more the backup and Vic is getting ~115 starts, Chirinos brings a lefty mashing bat which we know is also something we need to address.


I think this is where I have the most disconnect, my goal would be to find someone I consider to be Caratini's equal from a productivity perspective. If they complement each other(e.g. a lefty masher) all the better, but I think you create the greatest outcome by not intentionally getting someone known to be worse than Caratini. That is probably marginally more expensive, but I think the incremental couple million is worth the benefit/risk minimization.
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby sneakypower » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:17 pm

whoa i would not have ever guessed the team which had the highest offensive value collectively from the C position this season

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92 runs, 40 HR, 90 RBI

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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby Cubswin11 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:23 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:
TomtheBombadil wrote:
Yeah but we know that the team's shopping for more upside defensively which Chirinos doesn't really check...The other two have been top of the league framers at their best, Chirinos peaked at about average, and also have some bat

Sure. But if we believe whoever is added is more the backup and Vic is getting ~115 starts, Chirinos brings a lefty mashing bat which we know is also something we need to address.


I think this is where I have the most disconnect, my goal would be to find someone I consider to be Caratini's equal from a productivity perspective. If they complement each other(e.g. a lefty masher) all the better, but I think you create the greatest outcome by not intentionally getting someone known to be worse than Caratini. That is probably marginally more expensive, but I think the incremental couple million is worth the benefit/risk minimization.

That’s fair and yeah probably how I think it should work now that you laid it out. I still think Vic is the nominal starter in the event Willy is moved, regardless of who comes in but it will probably be like a 90/70 start split with him and TBD FA.
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby TomtheBombadil » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:23 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:There doesn’t seem to be any real options out there that fit this profile that we’d realistically be in on. Listen I’m fine going another direction than Chirinos but he does bring something to help the overall composition of the team.


Why would they "realistically be in on" Chirinos if budget suddenly becomes an issue among OFs that can or might hit LHP while Heyward and Schwarber are on the roster? I just don't see him as a realistic target if budgeting under the cap is such a big deal

Overall though, I think the whole LHP masher thing is a manufactured need, more of a want, than something to really lock in on players for. This team was boring to watch the past few years no matter what hand the pitcher threw with
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby Cubswin11 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:39 pm

TomtheBombadil wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:There doesn’t seem to be any real options out there that fit this profile that we’d realistically be in on. Listen I’m fine going another direction than Chirinos but he does bring something to help the overall composition of the team.


Why would they "realistically be in on" Chirinos if budget suddenly becomes an issue among OFs that can or might hit LHP while Heyward and Schwarber are on the roster? I just don't see him as a realistic target if budgeting under the cap is such a big deal

Overall though, I think the whole LHP masher thing is a manufactured need, more of a want, than something to really lock in on players for. This team was boring to watch the past few years no matter what hand the pitcher threw with

He’s not costing more than $4-6 mil a year. There’s no clear cheap options for OF lefty matching as far as I know and I don’t think we’re “realistically” in on Nick, Ozuna or Garcia for varying reasons. Chirinos is a cheap way to possibly help plug a hole this team had last year when there aren’t clear alternatives and the likelihood of moving Schwarbs and especially Heyward aren’t high. If you can add a guy like Chirinos who has a 120 wRC+ or whatever vs LHP you can get away with Heyward maybe having to play with them a bit and burying him in the order.
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby CUB5 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:46 pm

Glad to have him out of the Central.


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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby TomtheBombadil » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:55 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:He’s not costing more than $4-6 mil a year. There’s no clear cheap options for OF lefty matching as far as I know and I don’t think we’re “realistically” in on Nick, Ozuna or Garcia for varying reasons. Chirinos is a cheap way to possibly help plug a hole this team had last year when there aren’t clear alternatives and the likelihood of moving Schwarbs and especially Heyward aren’t high. If you can add a guy like Chirinos who has a 120 wRC+ or whatever vs LHP you can get away with Heyward maybe having to play with them a bit and burying him in the order.


At min that's a $750K pay cut. Are we hoping he takes a big paycut off his best year or the FA machinations get him? Garcia had a $3.5 million salary last year btw to Chirinos' $6.75...But even then the whole LHP masher thing is noise, this team didn't start getting boring when Almora stopped hitting LHers or whatever started this one
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby Backtobanks » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:22 pm

squally1313 wrote:
Backtobanks wrote:
squally1313 wrote:This pretty much eliminates any desire I have to trade Contreras.



Any talk of the Cubs trading Contreras and paying Grandal what he wanted was only in the minds of some posters. With limited funds and many holes to fill, adding to a position of power wasn't going to happen.


I'm with you on the limited funds thing, but diverging on the second point because the catcher position without Contreras is definitely not a position of power.


As per all of the related discussion, Caratini plus a cheaper veteran FA catcher is still a solid choice.
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby The_Achiever » Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:45 am

Grandal is a good pickup but then the hilarious, reinsdorfian overpay for the “loyal” guy abreu.

Probably couldn’t get half of 50 mil from another team.
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby Cubswin11 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:09 am

The_Achiever wrote:Grandal is a good pickup but then the hilarious, reinsdorfian overpay for the “loyal” guy abreu.

Probably couldn’t get half of 50 mil from another team.

I think Fangraphs had him at like 1/11 if he hit FA. Lol. Giving him the QO was ridiculously stupid too.
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Re: White Sox sign Grandal 4/$73

Postby TomtheBombadil » Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:29 am

Yeah they coulda cut him and signed someone like Justin Smoak, Bour, or Howie Kendrick and be just as good or wait until the rebuild is officially officially over to do some dumb spending. Joke's on them, now their $/WAR's going to be way out of wack and they have too many guys who can hit between 2 positions and two of them are aging
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