Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby toonsterwu » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:14 pm

Dealing Contreras shouldn't be an issue. He's close to the tipping point where guys start sliding back down, but he's at enough of a peak still, offensively and defensively, that he should net something ... decent. The Cubs seem fairly clear to be either

a) dumping salary

b) Rebuilding/retooling whatever word you want to use

or more likely

c) Both

So might as well get a return while a guy is close to his peak.

In that same vein, I'd still make an argument to shop Davies. He's arguably at a high point in value, teams are pinching pennies because of the pandemic (whether right/wrong is a different issue, but most teams are). Cubs just saved on Darvish. You could move Davies, sign someone to eat innings in FA for maybe a 2 year deal and hope they turn out well so you can shop him mid-season, or if not, heck, it's 2 years.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby ThePenguin11 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:03 am

Dare we speculate on what type of return the Cubs should get for Contreras? Top 50 overall prospect? They need to get a top SP prospect at some point.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby abmillis » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:10 am

Might as well. If they're not trying to win, trade everyone with real value that won't help you when you plan to compete next.

Don't trade Bryant or Baez yet, because they need to rebuild value. And maybe don't trade Hendricks, because I'm pretty sure he can do what he's doing until he's 40.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Cubswin11 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:10 am

ThePenguin11 wrote:Dare we speculate on what type of return the Cubs should get for Contreras? Top 50 overall prospect? They need to get a top SP prospect at some point.

A top 20-50 prospect, some sort of MLB ready/current player (like a swing man/bullpen arm/platoon bat/guy making money), and probably some young lotto ticket like a Yu trade guy would be my guess.

If we were trading for him as an example I’d say something like Amaya, 1 of Adbert, Nico or Bote and then a lotto ticket type guy in A ball.

I still don’t mind the idea of something like Contreras and Kimbrel to the Phillies for Segura, Spencer Howard and some other stuff going either way. Phillies can 1 stop shop their catcher and closer need. We save some money on a yearly basis and get a competent major league IF for a few years (still have to field a MLB team and could flip him at some point), also get a young rotation piece and maybe something else.
Last edited by Cubswin11 on Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:31 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby 17 Seconds » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:15 am

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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Tim » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:38 am

Cubswin11 wrote:
ThePenguin11 wrote:Dare we speculate on what type of return the Cubs should get for Contreras? Top 50 overall prospect? They need to get a top SP prospect at some point.

A top 20-50 prospect, some sort of MLB ready/current player (like a swing man/bullpen arm/platoon bat/guy making money), and probably some young lotto ticket like a Yu trade guy would be my guess.

If we were trading for him as an example I’d say something like Amaya, 1 of Adbert, Nico or Bote and then a lotto ticket type guy in A ball.

I still don’t mind the idea of something like Contreras and Kimbrel to the Phillies for Segura, Spencer Howard and some other stuff going either way. Phillies can 1 stop shop their catcher and closer need. We save some money on a yearly basis and get a competent major league IF for a few years (still have to field a MLB team and could flip him at some point), also get a young rotation piece and maybe something else.

Now that Dombrowski is there it is open season on Phillies prospects.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Bertz » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:38 am

I'm cool trading Willson, but IMO it has to go one of two ways:

1. This truly is a fire sale and you're going scorched earth. In that case Hendricks needs to go too. Happ probably as well (maybe he's young/controlled enough you don't *have* to?). Any of the guys in their walk years you can hang onto til the deadline if you'd like to gamble on them/your coaching

2. You have to get MLB or near MLB pieces back. If you're not going the fire sale route, you wanna do what you can to make this dip as short as possible. Darvish freed up money for next winter's FA bonanza, but did nothing to directy improve the '22 team. If you can fill a spot or (ideally) two on the '22 roster with a Willson trade, it starts being more likely that there are few enough cracks on the '22 roster that you can paper over them with cash

The question with Contreras though is where. Phillies are an obvious destination if they miss on Realmuto. Angels and Nationals as well. That's....about it? Are the Indians willing to reinvest ~1/3rd of Lindor's salary? Maybe the Tigers or Marlins want to start adding guys a star a year early in anticipation of really going for it next winter?
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Tim » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:41 am

Bertz wrote:I'm cool trading Willson, but IMO it has to go one of two ways:

1. This truly is a fire sale and you're going scorched earth. In that case Hendricks needs to go too. Happ probably as well (maybe he's young/controlled enough you don't *have* to?). Any of the guys in their walk years you can hang onto til the deadline if you'd like to gamble on them/your coaching

2. You have to get MLB or near MLB pieces back. If you're not going the fire sale route, you wanna do what you can to make this dip as short as possible. Darvish freed up money for next winter's FA bonanza, but did nothing to directy improve the '22 team. If you can fill a spot or (ideally) two on the '22 roster with a Willson trade, it starts being more likely that there are few enough cracks on the '22 roster that you can paper over them with cash

The question with Contreras though is where. Phillies are an obvious destination if they miss on Realmuto. Angels and Nationals as well. That's....about it? Are the Indians willing to reinvest ~1/3rd of Lindor's salary? Maybe the Tigers or Marlins want to start adding guys a star a year early in anticipation of really going for it next winter?

If I'm trading Happ, I want an Adam Eaton kind of deal.

I feel I'm being realistic. :D
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Backtobanks » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:00 am

Bertz wrote:


2. You have to get MLB or near MLB pieces back. If you're not going the fire sale route, you wanna do what you can to make this dip as short as possible. Darvish freed up money for next winter's FA bonanza, but did nothing to directy improve the '22 team. If you can fill a spot or (ideally) two on the '22 roster with a Willson trade, it starts being more likely that there are few enough cracks on the '22 roster that you can paper over them with cash



What do you have against teenagers? After the embarrassing trade of Darvish, I wouldn't get my hopes up too high.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby TomtheBombadil » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:06 am

ThePenguin11 wrote:Dare we speculate on what type of return the Cubs should get for Contreras? Top 50 overall prospect? They need to get a top SP prospect at some point.


I'll go team specific:

Angels: Taylor Ward OF, Patrick Sandoval LHSP, Jordyn Adams CF, Werner Blakely SS/William Holmes RHP

Jays: Danny Jansen C, Ryan Borucki LHP, Hector Perez RHP, Simeon Woods-Richardson RHSP

Seattle: Logan Gilbert/George Kirby RHSP, Taylor Trammell CF, Kaden Polcovich SS

Rays: Manuel Margot CF, Taylor Walls SS, Xavier Edwards 2B, Jon Doxakis LHP/Joe Ryan RHP

I think I put them in order of personal preference
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby ThePenguin11 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:51 am

TomtheBombadil wrote:
ThePenguin11 wrote:Dare we speculate on what type of return the Cubs should get for Contreras? Top 50 overall prospect? They need to get a top SP prospect at some point.


I'll go team specific:

Angels: Taylor Ward OF, Patrick Sandoval LHSP, Jordyn Adams CF, Werner Blakely SS/William Holmes RHP

Jays: Danny Jansen C, Ryan Borucki LHP, Hector Perez RHP, Simeon Woods-Richardson RHSP

Seattle: Logan Gilbert/George Kirby RHSP, Taylor Trammell CF, Kaden Polcovich SS

Rays: Manuel Margot CF, Taylor Walls SS, Xavier Edwards 2B, Jon Doxakis LHP/Joe Ryan RHP

I think I put them in order of personal preference


Kirby or Ryan please!
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Named After Maddux » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:52 am

Bertz wrote:I'm cool trading Willson, but IMO it has to go one of two ways:

1. This truly is a fire sale and you're going scorched earth. In that case Hendricks needs to go too. Happ probably as well (maybe he's young/controlled enough you don't *have* to?). Any of the guys in their walk years you can hang onto til the deadline if you'd like to gamble on them/your coaching

2. You have to get MLB or near MLB pieces back. If you're not going the fire sale route, you wanna do what you can to make this dip as short as possible. Darvish freed up money for next winter's FA bonanza, but did nothing to directy improve the '22 team. If you can fill a spot or (ideally) two on the '22 roster with a Willson trade, it starts being more likely that there are few enough cracks on the '22 roster that you can paper over them with cash

The question with Contreras though is where. Phillies are an obvious destination if they miss on Realmuto. Angels and Nationals as well. That's....about it? Are the Indians willing to reinvest ~1/3rd of Lindor's salary? Maybe the Tigers or Marlins want to start adding guys a star a year early in anticipation of really going for it next winter?


I still like my Contreras to Toronto for Simeon Woods Richardson, Danny Jansen, and CJ Van Eyk deal. If you expanded it to include Davies, maybe Stripling comes back. He had a rough 2020, but if you believe you can get him back to form then his team control is helpful.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby TomtheBombadil » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:02 am

Named After Maddux wrote:I still like my Contreras to Toronto for Simeon Woods Richardson, Danny Jansen, and CJ Van Eyk deal.


I like this much better, small but big impact. There was some twitter speculation Woods-Richardson might have made his ML debut in 2020 IIRC. Overall agreed that the Blue Jays are the cleanest fit if trading both Contreras and Caratini. It would be nice if the traded could be expanded to include Gurriel Jr.

Other take is I'd rather trade Mills than Davies in a Contreras deal. Davies can carry his own trade the way many are going to be scrambling for pitching if the season is scheduled for more than 60 games
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Named After Maddux » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:14 am

TomtheBombadil wrote:
Named After Maddux wrote:I still like my Contreras to Toronto for Simeon Woods Richardson, Danny Jansen, and CJ Van Eyk deal.


I like this much better, small but big impact. There was some twitter speculation Woods-Richardson might have made his ML debut in 2020 IIRC. Overall agreed that the Blue Jays are the cleanest fit if trading both Contreras and Caratini. It would be nice if the traded could be expanded to include Gurriel Jr.

Other take is I'd rather trade Mills than Davies in a Contreras deal. Davies can carry his own trade the way many are going to be scrambling for pitching if the season is scheduled for more than 60 games


That’s a good point on Mills, Tom. I’d prefer trading him over Davies despite the additional control.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Hairyducked Idiot » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:23 am

No one is giving you mlb-ready talent in trades these days. They’d rather just promote and use them themselves
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Cubswin11 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:27 am

Hairyducked Idiot wrote:No one is giving you mlb-ready talent in trades these days. They’d rather just promote and use them themselves

The Rays literally just got two MLB ready guys in the Snell trade.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby TomtheBombadil » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:43 am

Hairyducked Idiot wrote:No one is giving you mlb-ready talent in trades these days. They’d rather just promote and use them themselves


If in reference to Woods-Richardson, he just turned 20 in late September and hadn't pitched above A+ ball so it was probably just hype or I don't remember right at all

If not then yeah, I don't see like Jo Adell coming back for Contreras (hot take: Adams > Adell anyway)
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby toonsterwu » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:58 am

Just to be clear, I didn't mean to suggest shopping Davies in a Contreras deal. If they opt to shop him, Davies should be good enough to be a deal on his own, considering the financial dynamics in baseball right now and his performance last year.

Considering the win-now mode the Angels are in and Contreras and Maddon's seemingly close relationship, plus a clear need for them there, that'd be an interesting fit. It's an interesting package idea that Tom posted above, with two major leaguers and Jordyn Adams as the headlining prospect. I could see something like that happen. I'd rather try and grab a high ceiling arm like Jack Kochanowicz than someone like Jordyn Adams. That said, Kochanowicz is a prized arm and might not be available.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby TomtheBombadil » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:21 am

toonsterwu wrote:Just to be clear, I didn't mean to suggest shopping Davies in a Contreras deal. If they opt to shop him, Davies should be good enough to be a deal on his own, considering the financial dynamics in baseball right now and his performance last year.

Considering the win-now mode the Angels are in and Contreras and Maddon's seemingly close relationship, plus a clear need for them there, that'd be an interesting fit. It's an interesting package idea that Tom posted above, with two major leaguers and Jordyn Adams as the headlining prospect. I could see something like that happen. I'd rather try and grab a high ceiling arm like Jack Kochanowicz than someone like Jordyn Adams. That said, Kochanowicz is a prized arm and might not be available.


Nooo, Adams is the reason my imaginary deal works! He's probably the best athlete in the minors, a sure CFer, has plenty of power coming, and demonstrated an advanced approach (10+% BB rate, below league average K rate, better than league average power) in the MWL over a nice, big 400+ PA sample size last year at 19. Think Pace of the Braves but he a higher ceiling and more team friendly (like winning not money) offensive game. Similar to Brennen Davis but with a much, much higher amateur profile, he was not supposed to see full season ball in 2019 let alone be one of the best players in the league. I have him as another one of those super high ceiling guys within the pro baseball sub-ML world*

Kochanowicz isn't horrendous or anything, but he's far from Adams and also booooooo pitchers that haven't thrown a pro (MLB, NPB, NCAA, KBO, MiLB) pitch

*True only if with Cubs obviously
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Ding Dong Johnson » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:18 am

horsefeathers the Cubs.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:29 am

This thread sucks.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Bear Cub » Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:49 am

I never thought the Cubs would suddenly become a second rate teams Thanks Ricketts and trump too!
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Backtobanks » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:34 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:
Hairyducked Idiot wrote:No one is giving you mlb-ready talent in trades these days. They’d rather just promote and use them themselves

The Rays literally just got two MLB ready guys in the Snell trade.


Yeah, but the Rays don't have PTR as an owner and Hoyer a president.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby grassbass » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:44 pm

Backtobanks wrote:
Cubswin11 wrote:
Hairyducked Idiot wrote:No one is giving you mlb-ready talent in trades these days. They’d rather just promote and use them themselves

The Rays literally just got two MLB ready guys in the Snell trade.


Yeah, but the Rays don't have PTR as an owner and Hoyer a president.


We get it. You miss Hendry. Move on.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby The Logan » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:06 pm

You know when we saw rumors that SD was shopping for a catcher with Darvish I assumed that meant Contreras and the Cubs were gonna pick their pockets for elite talent. Instead they got Caratini and from there I thought "Oh wow, the Cubs are going to commit to Contreras behind the plate"

But no, let's get rid of both of our catchers. Are they seriously gonna ride with Amaya behind the plate?
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