Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby toonsterwu » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:11 pm

TomtheBombadil wrote:
toonsterwu wrote:Just to be clear, I didn't mean to suggest shopping Davies in a Contreras deal. If they opt to shop him, Davies should be good enough to be a deal on his own, considering the financial dynamics in baseball right now and his performance last year.

Considering the win-now mode the Angels are in and Contreras and Maddon's seemingly close relationship, plus a clear need for them there, that'd be an interesting fit. It's an interesting package idea that Tom posted above, with two major leaguers and Jordyn Adams as the headlining prospect. I could see something like that happen. I'd rather try and grab a high ceiling arm like Jack Kochanowicz than someone like Jordyn Adams. That said, Kochanowicz is a prized arm and might not be available.


Nooo, Adams is the reason my imaginary deal works! He's probably the best athlete in the minors, a sure CFer, has plenty of power coming, and demonstrated an advanced approach (10+% BB rate, below league average K rate, better than league average power) in the MWL over a nice, big 400+ PA sample size last year at 19. Think Pace of the Braves but he a higher ceiling and more team friendly (like winning not money) offensive game. Similar to Brennen Davis but with a much, much higher amateur profile, he was not supposed to see full season ball in 2019 let alone be one of the best players in the league. I have him as another one of those super high ceiling guys within the pro baseball sub-ML world*

Kochanowicz isn't horrendous or anything, but he's far from Adams and also booooooo pitchers that haven't thrown a pro (MLB, NPB, NCAA, KBO, MiLB) pitch

*True only if with Cubs obviously


I think, the little I've followed of baseball, that Adams swing seems mildly concerning. It's possible that got fixed at some point this season when I wasn't paying attention. His ceiling is through the roof, I'll admit. Got bored right now and saw a video on Jordyn Adams swing, so maybe it has changed a bit already. At some point, though, the Cubs need to get take some chances on some high ceiling arms. Kochanowicz's stuff ticked up, from what I read, and his secondary pitches had a solid base to work with. I really wonder if he ends up as a frontline type of arm. Yes, the risk is far higher, but at some point, the Cubs have to take a gamble. That said, it's quite possible the Angels, with Adell and Marsh, would be more willing to shop Adams than someone like Kochanowicz.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby squally1313 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:58 pm

The Logan wrote:You know when we saw rumors that SD was shopping for a catcher with Darvish I assumed that meant Contreras and the Cubs were gonna pick their pockets for elite talent. Instead they got Caratini and from there I thought "Oh wow, the Cubs are going to commit to Contreras behind the plate"

But no, let's get rid of both of our catchers. Are they seriously gonna ride with Amaya behind the plate?


I wonder if there’s a veteran catcher out there with a long, storied career who could mentor Amaya for a season. Perhaps even has a ton of experience in the NL central and could pass along that expertise as well.

(At this point, might as well right? Burn it all down)
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby abmillis » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:19 pm

squally1313 wrote:
The Logan wrote:You know when we saw rumors that SD was shopping for a catcher with Darvish I assumed that meant Contreras and the Cubs were gonna pick their pockets for elite talent. Instead they got Caratini and from there I thought "Oh wow, the Cubs are going to commit to Contreras behind the plate"

But no, let's get rid of both of our catchers. Are they seriously gonna ride with Amaya behind the plate?


I wonder if there’s a veteran catcher out there with a long, storied career who could mentor Amaya for a season. Perhaps even has a ton of experience in the NL central and could pass along that expertise as well.

(At this point, might as well right? Burn it all down)


I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:21 pm

abmillis wrote:
squally1313 wrote:
The Logan wrote:You know when we saw rumors that SD was shopping for a catcher with Darvish I assumed that meant Contreras and the Cubs were gonna pick their pockets for elite talent. Instead they got Caratini and from there I thought "Oh wow, the Cubs are going to commit to Contreras behind the plate"

But no, let's get rid of both of our catchers. Are they seriously gonna ride with Amaya behind the plate?


I wonder if there’s a veteran catcher out there with a long, storied career who could mentor Amaya for a season. Perhaps even has a ton of experience in the NL central and could pass along that expertise as well.

(At this point, might as well right? Burn it all down)


I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit

Yeah, EVERYONE hates Ross.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Andy » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:23 pm

For whatever it's worth, which isn't much after he tried to claim trading Yu wasn't about money

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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:29 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
abmillis wrote:
squally1313 wrote:
I wonder if there’s a veteran catcher out there with a long, storied career who could mentor Amaya for a season. Perhaps even has a ton of experience in the NL central and could pass along that expertise as well.

(At this point, might as well right? Burn it all down)


I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit

Yeah, EVERYONE hates Ross.


Nice.

Though the debacle of Ross the terrible manager also returning as a terrible manager/catcher hybrid might be balls-smashingly stupid enough to get me interested again. Like, bringing in Molina would just be boringly annoying. Doing the former instead would be the true I'm Gonna Cub So Hard galaxy-braining this franchise deserves.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:12 pm

Wait is Bob really the only person reporting this? So Contreras is getting extended then?
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Cubswin11 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:34 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:Wait is Bob really the only person reporting this? So Contreras is getting extended then?

I think Lavine and one of the other National guys like Sherman have also mentioned it.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:50 pm

Jed was lying about the Darvish deal not being financially-motivated, but he's totes telling the truth about Willy not being shopped.

'K
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Backtobanks » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:55 pm

squally1313 wrote:
The Logan wrote:You know when we saw rumors that SD was shopping for a catcher with Darvish I assumed that meant Contreras and the Cubs were gonna pick their pockets for elite talent. Instead they got Caratini and from there I thought "Oh wow, the Cubs are going to commit to Contreras behind the plate"

But no, let's get rid of both of our catchers. Are they seriously gonna ride with Amaya behind the plate?


I wonder if there’s a veteran catcher out there with a long, storied career who could mentor Amaya for a season. Perhaps even has a ton of experience in the NL central and could pass along that expertise as well.

(At this point, might as well right? Burn it all down)


We don't need a veteran catcher to mentor Amaya, we need somebody to teach him how to hit ML pitching. He's not a great hitter down in the low minors.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Backtobanks » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:57 pm

Andy wrote:For whatever it's worth, which isn't much after he tried to claim trading Yu wasn't about money



Like the boss praising you before giving you the pink slip. Do we want to start a pool as to how soon he's traded?
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Cubswin11 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:15 pm

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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby CaliforniaRaisin » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:19 pm

Backtobanks wrote:
squally1313 wrote:
The Logan wrote:You know when we saw rumors that SD was shopping for a catcher with Darvish I assumed that meant Contreras and the Cubs were gonna pick their pockets for elite talent. Instead they got Caratini and from there I thought "Oh wow, the Cubs are going to commit to Contreras behind the plate"

But no, let's get rid of both of our catchers. Are they seriously gonna ride with Amaya behind the plate?


I wonder if there’s a veteran catcher out there with a long, storied career who could mentor Amaya for a season. Perhaps even has a ton of experience in the NL central and could pass along that expertise as well.

(At this point, might as well right? Burn it all down)


We don't need a veteran catcher to mentor Amaya, we need somebody to teach him how to hit ML pitching. He's not a great hitter down in the low minors.


Not a great hitter? He had a 114 wRC+ in 2018 in South Bend and 122 in 2019 in Myrtle Beach.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:25 pm

CaliforniaRaisin wrote:
Backtobanks wrote:
squally1313 wrote:
I wonder if there’s a veteran catcher out there with a long, storied career who could mentor Amaya for a season. Perhaps even has a ton of experience in the NL central and could pass along that expertise as well.

(At this point, might as well right? Burn it all down)


We don't need a veteran catcher to mentor Amaya, we need somebody to teach him how to hit ML pitching. He's not a great hitter down in the low minors.


Not a great hitter? He had a 114 wRC+ in 2018 in South Bend and 122 in 2019 in Myrtle Beach.

He's also absolutely mashing the ball in Winter Leagues right now with a very Rizzo-esque .261/.514/.609 and 6 HBP in 35 PAs, in case this thread isn't aware.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby CoolHandLuke » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:38 pm

Was backtobanks gone for a while? Or was he just not so annoying all over the place, like he suddenly seems to be?
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby ThePenguin11 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:49 pm

Backtobanks wrote:
squally1313 wrote:
The Logan wrote:You know when we saw rumors that SD was shopping for a catcher with Darvish I assumed that meant Contreras and the Cubs were gonna pick their pockets for elite talent. Instead they got Caratini and from there I thought "Oh wow, the Cubs are going to commit to Contreras behind the plate"

But no, let's get rid of both of our catchers. Are they seriously gonna ride with Amaya behind the plate?


I wonder if there’s a veteran catcher out there with a long, storied career who could mentor Amaya for a season. Perhaps even has a ton of experience in the NL central and could pass along that expertise as well.

(At this point, might as well right? Burn it all down)


We don't need a veteran catcher to mentor Amaya, we need somebody to teach him how to hit ML pitching. He's not a great hitter down in the low minors.


Wouldn’t like...David Ross be a good person to mentor a young catcher? If you’re gonna blow it up just get any vet catcher to split time with Amaya and have Ross “mentor” him.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby squally1313 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:30 pm

To be clear I was kidding because Contreras is fun and good at baseball and we should prioritize having those kinds of players on our team.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby TomtheBombadil » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:48 pm

toonsterwu wrote:I think, the little I've followed of baseball, that Adams swing seems mildly concerning. It's possible that got fixed at some point this season when I wasn't paying attention. His ceiling is through the roof, I'll admit. Got bored right now and saw a video on Jordyn Adams swing, so maybe it has changed a bit already. At some point, though, the Cubs need to get take some chances on some high ceiling arms. Kochanowicz's stuff ticked up, from what I read, and his secondary pitches had a solid base to work with. I really wonder if he ends up as a frontline type of arm. Yes, the risk is far higher, but at some point, the Cubs have to take a gamble. That said, it's quite possible the Angels, with Adell and Marsh, would be more willing to shop Adams than someone like Kochanowicz.


I liked Kochanowicz during the draft but

a) I hate to center any deal around a pitcher, needs to be some special context like a stud or a great price
b) I most definitely hate to center any deal around a teenaged pitcher who hasn't thrown a pro pitch (though technically he turned 20 a week or so ago)

Even if he ends up a frontline kind of arm, it's hard to imagine this cold weather state arm who hasn't logged a pro (MLB, NPB, NCAA, MiLB, KBO) inning yet at 20 ever becomes *that* dude who can lead a staff. That alone is enough for me to prefer the everyday guy with Adams' talents

All that said, I'm less into a Contreras trade than pre-Darvish. I think they should stick to their roots, outhit and outdefend everyone, and win a WS despite moving a TOR pitcher. New perspective for me is that I've been underrating Kyle Hendricks for a long, long time because he doesn't ace over the workloads I grew up on but he's a horse in today's game
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Old Style » Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:56 pm

CoolHandLuke wrote:Was backtobanks gone for a while? Or was he just not so annoying all over the place, like he suddenly seems to be?

I miss all of his wacky three team trade proposals.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Backtobanks » Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:22 pm

Old Style wrote:
CoolHandLuke wrote:Was backtobanks gone for a while? Or was he just not so annoying all over the place, like he suddenly seems to be?

I miss all of his wacky three team trade proposals.


Most of them made more sense than the embarrassing Darvish trade.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby Bertz » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:16 am



Mooney has an article on trading Contreras up in The Athletic that kind of echoes this point. Also mentions that the team is looking at Jason Castro to replace Caratini.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby gflore34 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:42 am

Backtobanks wrote:
Old Style wrote:
CoolHandLuke wrote:Was backtobanks gone for a while? Or was he just not so annoying all over the place, like he suddenly seems to be?

I miss all of his wacky three team trade proposals.


Most of them made more sense than the embarrassing Darvish trade.


Maybe some of us arm chair GM's over valued Darvish? If we didn't the trade was historically terrible and embarrassing, four marginal talents (baseball wise relative to others) that could be found among hundreds of other players in hundreds of other places, nothing special, you could find these types in later rounds of any draft.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby toonsterwu » Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:58 am

Bertz wrote:https://twitter.com/sahadevsharma/status/1344346207804645377?s=19

Mooney has an article on trading Contreras up in The Athletic that kind of echoes this point. Also mentions that the team is looking at Jason Castro to replace Caratini.


Feels like this is rebuilding without using the word. I know what Hoyer said (and he is right, the ability to rinse and repeat that previous cycle is probably not the same anymore due to systematic changes across the sport), but moving veterans and trying to get short term stopgaps ... I think the the only things that prevent this from a rinse and repeat of the previous run is that

a) they'll probably keep a core piece or two around (like Baez and Rizzo)
b) The division will probably be relatively weak for a couple years
c) At least in the next year, it's going to be hard for them to bottom out that much.

That said, specific to Contreras, they can afford to wait a bit on a good deal. There's no immediate rush. Should probably still move him this year, preferably before the year, but at least by the trade deadline.
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby toonsterwu » Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:10 am

TomtheBombadil wrote:
toonsterwu wrote:I think, the little I've followed of baseball, that Adams swing seems mildly concerning. It's possible that got fixed at some point this season when I wasn't paying attention. His ceiling is through the roof, I'll admit. Got bored right now and saw a video on Jordyn Adams swing, so maybe it has changed a bit already. At some point, though, the Cubs need to get take some chances on some high ceiling arms. Kochanowicz's stuff ticked up, from what I read, and his secondary pitches had a solid base to work with. I really wonder if he ends up as a frontline type of arm. Yes, the risk is far higher, but at some point, the Cubs have to take a gamble. That said, it's quite possible the Angels, with Adell and Marsh, would be more willing to shop Adams than someone like Kochanowicz.


I liked Kochanowicz during the draft but

a) I hate to center any deal around a pitcher, needs to be some special context like a stud or a great price
b) I most definitely hate to center any deal around a teenaged pitcher who hasn't thrown a pro pitch (though technically he turned 20 a week or so ago)

Even if he ends up a frontline kind of arm, it's hard to imagine this cold weather state arm who hasn't logged a pro (MLB, NPB, NCAA, MiLB, KBO) inning yet at 20 ever becomes *that* dude who can lead a staff. That alone is enough for me to prefer the everyday guy with Adams' talents

All that said, I'm less into a Contreras trade than pre-Darvish. I think they should stick to their roots, outhit and outdefend everyone, and win a WS despite moving a TOR pitcher. New perspective for me is that I've been underrating Kyle Hendricks for a long, long time because he doesn't ace over the workloads I grew up on but he's a horse in today's game


All of that is fair. There's a immensely high level or risk with someone like Kochanowicz. I'm fine taking said gamble now, when the system is still really thin on pitching (much as I like Kohl Franklin ... tbh ... Kochanowicz is probably relatively similar to Kohl now that I think about it, both guys stuff supposedly ticked up and will be curious if it holds) and the major league club is not, on paper, an elite team.

Honestly, right now, I'll settle for a strong direction. I don't particularly care what, but a strong direction and no waffling.
If you rebuild, rebuild. It doesn't mean you have to gut it to zero, but move pieces that can net decent returns when you can. As I said earlier in the offseason, if they wanted to run the band back, I wouldn't have been against that as long as they made efforts to make running the band back worthwhile without sacrificing the future.

The TheoJed run was what it was - a successful rebuild that led to a title, a couple years of trying to extend the window, and as with most organizations, eventually, the window starts to fade a little if you focus too much on the present at the cost of the future. I mean, many of their big moves made sense at the time - I disliked the fundamentals of the Quintana deal (that is, giving up Eloy and Cease), but it made sense and the value was justified considering age and contract ... the Jason Heyward signing was ugly, but coming off the year he had, at his age, with his pedigree, it was fair). They probably fell into the opposite trap of what happened in Boston (Theo talked about his trades there costing the future when he joined the Cubs) - they probably over-valued some of their own guys (obvious who they would be), and then the system simply stalled. Tbh, I wonder if Happ and Hoerner will fall into guys they overvalue (I'd honestly consider shopping Happ this winter ... I just don't know how much better he can get).
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Re: Contreras Being “Extensively” Shopped

Postby ChiCubsFan » Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:34 am

gflore34 wrote:
Backtobanks wrote:
Old Style wrote:I miss all of his wacky three team trade proposals.


Most of them made more sense than the embarrassing Darvish trade.


Maybe some of us arm chair GM's over valued Darvish? If we didn't the trade was historically terrible and embarrassing, four marginal talents (baseball wise relative to others) that could be found among hundreds of other players in hundreds of other places, nothing special, you could find these types in later rounds of any draft.


That’s a bit of an over-exaggeration, but your premise was something I was wondering myself. I’m really curious to see what Bauer and the top-tier free agents get this off-season. If all these cheap ass owners refuse to pay these guys what they are worth due to decreases revenues, suddenly Darvish’s remaining 3 year team friendly contract is not as team friendly as we perceive it to be.
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