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 Post subject: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:47 am 
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WTF lol

MLB Trade Rumors ‏@mlbtraderumors
Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano http://bit.ly/XUvsfi #mlb

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:07 am 
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David wrote:
WTF lol

MLB Trade Rumors ‏@mlbtraderumors
Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano http://bit.ly/XUvsfi #mlb


Baker, Villanueva and Feldman deals keep looking better.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:15 am 
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i love this deal for them, and i'd have preferred it to the Feldman or Villanueva signings for us

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:31 am 
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Over the last 2 years, 5.23 ERA 4.43 FIP 4.31 xFIP 5.01 BB/9. I'm pretty happy we stayed away from that.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:36 am 
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sneakypower wrote:
i love this deal for them, and i'd have preferred it to the Feldman or Villanueva signings for us


I would prefer it over Villanueva but I like the Feldman deal more than the Liriano deal.

Pitt. made a similar signing with Burnett last year and it worked out great for them as far as pitchers with better stuff and getting that finally translate.

I think it was a very good move for the Bucs and one I would've liked to have seen the Cubs do.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:44 am 
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UK wrote:
sneakypower wrote:
i love this deal for them, and i'd have preferred it to the Feldman or Villanueva signings for us


I would prefer it over Villanueva but I like the Feldman deal more than the Liriano deal.

Same here. I don't like Villanueva at all and think Liriano has a higher upside.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:52 am 
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Irrelevant Dude wrote:
UK wrote:
sneakypower wrote:
i love this deal for them, and i'd have preferred it to the Feldman or Villanueva signings for us


I would prefer it over Villanueva but I like the Feldman deal more than the Liriano deal.

Same here. I don't like Villanueva at all and think Liriano has a higher upside.


The difference of course being that Villanueva was apparently willing to accept being a swingman and/or bullpen arm. Unless you like Liriano better than Feldman or Baker, there wasn't a guaranteed rotation slot to offer him.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:01 pm 
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XZero77 wrote:
Irrelevant Dude wrote:
UK wrote:
sneakypower wrote:
i love this deal for them, and i'd have preferred it to the Feldman or Villanueva signings for us


I would prefer it over Villanueva but I like the Feldman deal more than the Liriano deal.

Same here. I don't like Villanueva at all and think Liriano has a higher upside.


The difference of course being that Villanueva was apparently willing to accept being a swingman and/or bullpen arm. Unless you like Liriano better than Feldman or Baker, there wasn't a guaranteed rotation slot to offer him.

That may be true, but Villanueva is a very expensive swingman.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:03 pm 
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XZero77 wrote:
Irrelevant Dude wrote:
UK wrote:
sneakypower wrote:
i love this deal for them, and i'd have preferred it to the Feldman or Villanueva signings for us


I would prefer it over Villanueva but I like the Feldman deal more than the Liriano deal.

Same here. I don't like Villanueva at all and think Liriano has a higher upside.


The difference of course being that Villanueva was apparently willing to accept being a swingman and/or bullpen arm. Unless you like Liriano better than Feldman or Baker, there wasn't a guaranteed rotation slot to offer him.


Villanueva is a swingman guy b/c he can't last 180IP without falling off the map, Baker won't be ready for the start and who knows with Garza.

Even if they did run into a situation later on this Summer with too many starters for rotation spots, a productive Liriano has more trade value than a productive Villanueva.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:12 pm 
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Irrelevant Dude wrote:
XZero77 wrote:
Irrelevant Dude wrote:
UK wrote:
sneakypower wrote:
i love this deal for them, and i'd have preferred it to the Feldman or Villanueva signings for us


I would prefer it over Villanueva but I like the Feldman deal more than the Liriano deal.

Same here. I don't like Villanueva at all and think Liriano has a higher upside.


The difference of course being that Villanueva was apparently willing to accept being a swingman and/or bullpen arm. Unless you like Liriano better than Feldman or Baker, there wasn't a guaranteed rotation slot to offer him.

That may be true, but Villanueva is a very expensive swingman.


He's also going to most likely be getting all the starts after the trade deadline when we presumably move Baker and Feldman.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:28 pm 
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FWIW, the updates are now $13M for 2 years.

I like this. Before this, we had 2 rookies slotted for 4 & 5. Now we only need one of them. His being left handed will play well @ PNC. An overpay to be sure, but that's what we need to do. If he wins 10 games and keeps his ERA under 5, this is a good deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:47 pm 
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sneakypower wrote:
i love this deal for them, and i'd have preferred it to the Feldman or Villanueva signings for us

+1

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:52 pm 
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Jake when does Cole come into play? Mid season? Next year?

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 Post subject: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:30 pm 
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Irrelevant Dude wrote:
XZero77 wrote:
Irrelevant Dude wrote:
UK wrote:
sneakypower wrote:
i love this deal for them, and i'd have preferred it to the Feldman or Villanueva signings for us


I would prefer it over Villanueva but I like the Feldman deal more than the Liriano deal.

Same here. I don't like Villanueva at all and think Liriano has a higher upside.


The difference of course being that Villanueva was apparently willing to accept being a swingman and/or bullpen arm. Unless you like Liriano better than Feldman or Baker, there wasn't a guaranteed rotation slot to offer him.

That may be true, but Villanueva is a very expensive swingman.

David Posted a FanGraphs link in the Villanueva thread that stated, given his past results, he would be worth his contract even if used solely in the swingman/relief role.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:34 pm 
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http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... fectively/


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:43 pm 
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UK wrote:

Even if they did run into a situation later on this Summer with too many starters for rotation spots, a productive Liriano has more trade value than a productive Villanueva.


Liriano in the first half of 2011 was exactly what we should expect Liriano to be in the first half of 2012 and the twins got absolute garbage from the Sox for him. Liriano is past the point even were his name has any value.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:48 pm 
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Man, Fangraphs is awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:53 pm 
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illiniguy wrote:
Jake when does Cole come into play? Mid season? Next year?

Best guess is post all star game. Keep in mind he's had exactly 1 AAA start and it didn't go well at all. Team is doing well and he's doing well, that's my best guess.

I think a lot of it depends on circumstance. If the team is playing like Houston played last year, I don't see him coming up until September. If the team is floundering early and the pitching isn't getting the job done, and he does well his first couple of starts @ Indy, I wouldn't be surprised to see him early May.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:30 pm 
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illiniguy wrote:
Jake when does Cole come into play? Mid season? Next year?

Depends how well he does in SEAL training this spring

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:31 pm 
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nilodnayr wrote:
UK wrote:

Even if they did run into a situation later on this Summer with too many starters for rotation spots, a productive Liriano has more trade value than a productive Villanueva.


Liriano in the first half of 2011 was exactly what we should expect Liriano to be in the first half of 2012 and the twins got absolute garbage from the Sox for him. Liriano is past the point even were his name has any value.


That's b/c Liriano hasn't been able to get his stuff to translate into results, similar to when the Yankees had Burnett and there were wondering if the Cubs and Yanks would unload two bad contracts between Zambrano and Burnett, each had bad deals till the end of those contracts. Burnett went to the NL, improved his control whether he pitched to contact a little more is up for debate but he improved his stock greatly from a year ago. I'd be curious to see what the reaction was when Pitt acquired him.

If Liriano can maintain his stuff and get his ERA to be near his FIP, possibly pitch to cpntact more as well as going from the AL to the NL, I think we will see improvement from him.

I think we'll see Liriano have a much higher WAR than Villanueva during the durations of theses contracts. Also, if he shows any type of consistency or flashes like he had '10, with that cheap contract, he'll have more value than Villanueva.

I would be willing to bet that Liriano has a lower FIP and a higher WAR two years from now.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:35 pm 
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UK wrote:
XZero77 wrote:
Irrelevant Dude wrote:
UK wrote:
sneakypower wrote:
i love this deal for them, and i'd have preferred it to the Feldman or Villanueva signings for us


I would prefer it over Villanueva but I like the Feldman deal more than the Liriano deal.

Same here. I don't like Villanueva at all and think Liriano has a higher upside.


The difference of course being that Villanueva was apparently willing to accept being a swingman and/or bullpen arm. Unless you like Liriano better than Feldman or Baker, there wasn't a guaranteed rotation slot to offer him.


Villanueva is a swingman guy b/c he can't last 180IP without falling off the map, Baker won't be ready for the start and who knows with Garza.

Even if they did run into a situation later on this Summer with too many starters for rotation spots, a productive Liriano has more trade value than a productive Villanueva.


I'm not debating that, but do you get him to sign with assurances that he might get starts here or there if guys aren't healthy or get traded? I'm thinking no. Why accept any uncertainty about his role when can just sign with a team with fully open rotations slots?


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:43 pm 
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XZero77 wrote:

I'm not debating that, but do you get him to sign with assurances that he might get starts here or there if guys aren't healthy or get traded? I'm thinking no. Why accept any uncertainty about his role when can just sign with a team with fully open rotations slots?


It's worth looking into, we'll never know whether or not the Cubs were interested in Liriano or not but at the time Villanueva was signed, Jackson wasn't signed. They knew they were close with Jackson but the only thing I can see is them valuing Villanueva more b/c of his ability to spot-start and come out of the pen as a better fit than Liriano who has started more.

With that said, the numerous questions about injuries with the rotation and the likely greater production/value Liriano would bring, I would have rather seen them sign him to that contact and worry about roster composition at a later date than possibly settle for a "better" fit.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:49 pm 
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Jake wrote:
illiniguy wrote:
Jake when does Cole come into play? Mid season? Next year?

Best guess is post all star game. Keep in mind he's had exactly 1 AAA start and it didn't go well at all. Team is doing well and he's doing well, that's my best guess.

I think a lot of it depends on circumstance. If the team is playing like Houston played last year, I don't see him coming up until September. If the team is floundering early and the pitching isn't getting the job done, and he does well his first couple of starts @ Indy, I wouldn't be surprised to see him early May.

Hope they take it slow with him and he's able to iron out his delivery/command.

Also wish he'd be traded to an AL team so I can root for him without fear of him hurting the Cubs.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:54 pm 
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ABTY had mentioned earlier in the offseason that the Cubs had an offer out to him, same as Feldman's, but Feldman accepted.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Liriano 2/14
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:17 pm 
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UK wrote:
nilodnayr wrote:
UK wrote:

Even if they did run into a situation later on this Summer with too many starters for rotation spots, a productive Liriano has more trade value than a productive Villanueva.


Liriano in the first half of 2011 was exactly what we should expect Liriano to be in the first half of 2012 and the twins got absolute garbage from the Sox for him. Liriano is past the point even were his name has any value.


That's b/c Liriano hasn't been able to get his stuff to translate into results, similar to when the Yankees had Burnett and there were wondering if the Cubs and Yanks would unload two bad contracts between Zambrano and Burnett, each had bad deals till the end of those contracts. Burnett went to the NL, improved his control whether he pitched to contact a little more is up for debate but he improved his stock greatly from a year ago. I'd be curious to see what the reaction was when Pitt acquired him.

If Liriano can maintain his stuff and get his ERA to be near his FIP, possibly pitch to cpntact more as well as going from the AL to the NL, I think we will see improvement from him.

I think we'll see Liriano have a much higher WAR than Villanueva during the durations of theses contracts. Also, if he shows any type of consistency or flashes like he had '10, with that cheap contract, he'll have more value than Villanueva.

I would be willing to bet that Liriano has a lower FIP and a higher WAR two years from now.


If Minn and CWS couldn't get him to pitch to contact, no one can. That's just not Liriano. That's like saying if we could just get Bourn to hit 20 hrs, he'd be great! Ohh and Liriano hasn't put up good FIPs.

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