sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Cubswin11 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:07 am

I think it was Tom, but someone mentioned when he got the new role that being in charge of finding post hype guys, DFA’d/Non-tendered guys, like Muncy, etc. could actually be a good task and job for him since a lot of these guys currently hitting that point of their careers were draft prospects he scouted and is familiar with. Seems like decent work to throw his way and tell him to stay away from most of the other work.
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Bertz » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:25 am

I'm okay with them making the change with McLeod, it's probably time, but the animosity towards him is real weird, and I've yet to hear anything intelligible behind it.
It's always "BUT WHERE'S THE PITCHING" while ignoring a) the vast majority of resources were poured into bats b) McLeod's track record with bats is incredible and c) the pitching ship seems to have mostly been righted in ~2016 and we're beginning to see the results.
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Cubswin11 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:55 am

Bertz wrote:I'm okay with them making the change with McLeod, it's probably time, but the animosity towards him is real weird, and I've yet to hear anything intelligible behind it.
It's always "BUT WHERE'S THE PITCHING" while ignoring a) the vast majority of resources were poured into bats b) McLeod's track record with bats is incredible and c) the pitching ship seems to have mostly been righted in ~2016 and we're beginning to see the results.

Yeah I agree with this. Sure it’s frustrating things haven’t broken better with the drafts/IFA. But there is some context with how they decided to go about things and how they’ve used prospect resources for trades and like you said there isn’t hard evidence he’s some bumbling oaf and incompetent. I mean the 2018 draft is looking like it could be the best draft we’ve had in some time. Hoerner, Davis, Roederer top 3 then Richan was used for Castellanos, Kohl Franklin, Riley Thompson and I’m sure I’m missing a guy or two. That’s shaping up to be a draft to give us multiple useful MLB pieces, whether playing directly for us or used as capital in trades.
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Cubswin11 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:59 am

Yeah, this seems like a really solid hire.

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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby TomtheBombadil » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:17 am

Bertz wrote:I'm okay with them making the change with McLeod, it's probably time, but the animosity towards him is real weird, and I've yet to hear anything intelligible behind it.
It's always "BUT WHERE'S THE PITCHING" while ignoring a) the vast majority of resources were poured into bats b) McLeod's track record with bats is incredible and c) the pitching ship seems to have mostly been righted in ~2016 and we're beginning to see the results.


I think he gets pigeonholed into a pure scout type because the Cubs really gassed up his eye for talent and decisiveness. That's not really how you market a FO riser these days. People don't care about talent, but rather can he contend for Andrew Friedman's 5 year 38% payroll reduction while also not winning a WS but people kinda think you can most of the time? Sports is serious business so if his grand pappy didn't write a Hollywood classic and start a multi generational run at Yale or have a doctorate in Baseball Math or Population Control from an Ivy - how serious can he be?
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:43 am

Guys, stop; the only real argument in his favor is that he looks kind of like a bro-y version of Sal from Mad Men.
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Banedon » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:11 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:Guys, stop; the only real argument in his favor is that he looks kind of like a bro-y version of Sal from Mad Men.


I always thought he looked like a clean cut Pat Smear.
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby jersey cubs fan » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:39 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:Guys, stop; the only real argument in his favor is that he looks kind of like a bro-y version of Sal from Mad Men.

He too can finish his career in Baltimore
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby CaliforniaRaisin » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:25 pm

TomtheBombadil wrote:McLeod's still the defacto #3, that new title's fancy. I wouldn't be surprised if his promotion was Harris' cue that the Cubs see McLeod as a GM or higher candidate post-Theo


Based on what happened this offseason and everything that's available on Scott Harris, he had clearly jumped ahead of McLeod in this regime's view.
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby TomtheBombadil » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:55 pm

I'm not really willing to die on the Jason McLeod hill because I don't know these people *BUT* I don't find it coincidence that the guy without a baseball as srs bizness background, fancy/expensive degrees, and probably the least amount of family money among the top of the FO is the first to lose the fanbase. Love the choices sports fans make on who gets support and who gets trashed based on the tiniest bits of info

IIRC the first thing Epstein ever said about Scott Harris when he hired was something about how he really knew the administrative stuff and MLB rulebook
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby jersey cubs fan » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:59 pm

TomtheBombadil wrote:I'm not really willing to die on the Jason McLeod hill because I don't know these people *BUT* I don't find it coincidence that the guy without a baseball as srs bizness background, fancy/expensive degrees, and probably the least amount of family money among the top of the FO is the first to lose the fanbase. Love the choices sports fans make on who gets support and who gets trashed based on the tiniest bits of info


What the hell are you on about now you weirdo?

First off, the fan base doesn't even know who McCleod is. Next, the people that know Hoyer think of him as a punch line, and finally, a lot of people are getting fed up with Theo.

The Cubs hit on some early draft picks that were bats, but the minor league system completely dried up for a few years and has produced nothing. The guy in charge of that is going to take heat in any organization. Nobody gives a crap about his freaking dad's net worth.
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby David » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:04 pm

TomtheBombadil wrote:I'm not really willing to die on the Jason McLeod hill because I don't know these people *BUT* I don't find it coincidence that the guy without a baseball as srs bizness background, fancy/expensive degrees, and probably the least amount of family money among the top of the FO is the first to lose the fanbase. Love the choices sports fans make on who gets support and who gets trashed based on the tiniest bits of info

IIRC the first thing Epstein ever said about Scott Harris when he hired was something about how he really knew the administrative stuff and MLB rulebook


nobody thinks jed hoyer is anything but a guy who sits in on introductory press conferences and talks to the media about lesser free agent signings so theo doesn't have to
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby TomtheBombadil » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:09 pm

jersey cubs fan wrote:What the hell are you on about now you weirdo?


Everything's a conspiracy that goes back to the They that run the world, especially pro sports which is basically a less violent but equally and increasingly elitist form of organized religion. Bet you don't think I'm a weirdo now that I've fully explained myself while staying on topic
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Thed Hoyerstein » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:47 pm

TomtheBombadil wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:What the hell are you on about now you weirdo?


Everything's a conspiracy that goes back to the They that run the world, especially pro sports which is basically a less violent but equally and increasingly elitist form of organized religion. Bet you don't think I'm a weirdo now that I've fully explained myself while staying on topic


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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:19 pm

Banedon wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:Guys, stop; the only real argument in his favor is that he looks kind of like a bro-y version of Sal from Mad Men.


I always thought he looked like a clean cut Pat Smear.


This lead me to find this:

http://www.feelnumb.com/2019/02/20/pat- ... sic-video/

It has long been rumored that Pat Smear, the legendary punk rock guitarist from the bands The Germs, Nirvana & Foo Fighters was an extra in the 1985 Prince “Raspberry Beret” music video.

After I finally had a chance to speak to Smear backstage at a gig about the rumor, he 100% confirmed to me that he was indeed in the video and shared some stories with me about how it all happened.


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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:23 pm

Bertz wrote:I'm okay with them making the change with McLeod, it's probably time, but the animosity towards him is real weird, and I've yet to hear anything intelligible behind it.
It's always "BUT WHERE'S THE PITCHING" while ignoring a) the vast majority of resources were poured into bats b) McLeod's track record with bats is incredible and c) the pitching ship seems to have mostly been righted in ~2016 and we're beginning to see the results.


I guess that's the FO business mantra: something has gotta be god awful for years before it can be good. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.

Seriously, it cannot be understated how catastrophically bad they botched developing pitchers (literally ANY pitcher) for years.
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:23 pm

TomtheBombadil wrote:
jersey cubs fan wrote:What the hell are you on about now you weirdo?


Everything's a conspiracy that goes back to the They that run the world, especially pro sports which is basically a less violent but equally and increasingly elitist form of organized religion. Bet you don't think I'm a weirdo now that I've fully explained myself while staying on topic


I had no idea that Tom was actually Cubbie Swagger this entire time.
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Bertz » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:05 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Bertz wrote:I'm okay with them making the change with McLeod, it's probably time, but the animosity towards him is real weird, and I've yet to hear anything intelligible behind it.
It's always "BUT WHERE'S THE PITCHING" while ignoring a) the vast majority of resources were poured into bats b) McLeod's track record with bats is incredible and c) the pitching ship seems to have mostly been righted in ~2016 and we're beginning to see the results.


I guess that's the FO business mantra: something has gotta be god awful for years before it can be good. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.

Seriously, it cannot be understated how catastrophically bad they botched developing pitchers (literally ANY pitcher) for years.


Let's say you're right (you're not, you're grossly exaggerating things, but w/e), is that worth catapulting him out of town? Would you really rather have had a worse farm director if they had a better balance between hitting and pitching? Or is this some sort of "we should be the best at everything dammit" temper tantrum?
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:13 pm

Bertz wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
Bertz wrote:I'm okay with them making the change with McLeod, it's probably time, but the animosity towards him is real weird, and I've yet to hear anything intelligible behind it.
It's always "BUT WHERE'S THE PITCHING" while ignoring a) the vast majority of resources were poured into bats b) McLeod's track record with bats is incredible and c) the pitching ship seems to have mostly been righted in ~2016 and we're beginning to see the results.


I guess that's the FO business mantra: something has gotta be god awful for years before it can be good. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.

Seriously, it cannot be understated how catastrophically bad they botched developing pitchers (literally ANY pitcher) for years.


Let's say you're right (you're not, you're grossly exaggerating things, but w/e), is that worth catapulting him out of town?


Yes. Not developing a single pitcher of any real worth is really, really bad, and a massively critical aspect of running a damn farm system. To shrug that off like it's NBD is pretty damn funny, and to say, right now, that the "pitching ship has been mostly righted" is even funnier.

Would you really rather have had a worse farm director if they had a better balance between hitting and pitching? Or is this some sort of "we should be the best at everything dammit" temper tantrum?


So the options were only McLeod or someone worse? Well, gee, when you put it like that....
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Cubswin11 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:15 pm

I’d like to see the number of pitchers every team has developed since 2016 or so (drafted since 2015/16 and made it to majors) and see how we stack up. Are we 3 or so pitchers short? Closer to 10? More? Also would like to put some limits on it, like guys had to pitch at least 30 innings or accumulate positive WAR. Would also like to compare to teams who never picked higher than 15 or so too since we were always in the 20s or didn’t have a pick.

We have been bad at it, no doubt. But I do wonder if this is one of the things a lot of teams fans complain about and think it’s solely their problem when everyone else is within range of each other on it?
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:20 pm

Hell, I'd settle for the Cubs having developed someone more notable than CJ horsefeathering Edwards. Someone please tell me I'm blanking on someone else really, really, stupidly obvious.
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Cubswin11 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:23 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:Hell, I'd settle for the Cubs having developed someone more notable than CJ horsefeathering Edwards. Someone please tell me I'm blanking on someone else really, really, stupidly obvious.

Do you count Hendricks, Strop or Jake at all? I would get the argument either way. Sure they weren’t drafted, but they either were prospects when acquired and “developed” or sucked at the major league level and fixed/“developed.”
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Sammy Sofa » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:29 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:Hell, I'd settle for the Cubs having developed someone more notable than CJ horsefeathering Edwards. Someone please tell me I'm blanking on someone else really, really, stupidly obvious.

Do you count Hendricks, Strop or Jake at all? I would get the argument either way. Sure they weren’t drafted, but they either were prospects when acquired and “developed” or sucked at the major league level and fixed/“developed.”


Hendricks is exactly the kind of person I was thinking of, thanks; I would definitely count him. Strop and Jake basically just got plugged in right away, so no, I wouldn't count them in terms of evaluating McLeod.

I just look at some of the defense of him as still this ongoing residual of the horsefeathers don't stink-takes on the FO that still perpetuate, like he's practically this scared cow, where the idea of moving on from him is absurd.
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:34 pm

As far as relievers go, I think they've been a bit below average for multiple reasons, but they should've been able to avoid needing so many deals with the Kintzlers, Brachs, and Duensings of the world with better development.

Starters are a little different animal. If you look at the last few years, the correlation between starters who are above average, and especially those who are consistently above average, is really closely correlated to being a high draft pick and/or a high bonus arm. There's a shockingly low number of good IFA SP, and the diamonds in the draft rough are few and far in between. When you combine that with the Cubs intentionally not sinking money into draft SP until very recently, they intentionally didn't give themselves much chance to develop SP, but those with the ability they did a solid job with(Hendricks, Cease, and Godley being notable success stories, if not all with the MLB Cubs). I'm not willing to say they're *good* at it given that there isn't a legion of Top 100 arms hitting AA now that it's been long enough since they started investing, but there's enough circumstance to not see it as a failure of player development.
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Re: sometimes deck chairs need to be rearranged

Postby Banedon » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:44 pm

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