The Politics Thread

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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Brian » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:11 pm

Biden becomes 2nd Catholic U.S. President ever

Catholic Church: horsefeathers that guy
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:27 pm

OleMissCub wrote:So the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops is contemplating banning Biden from being able to receiving Holy Communion.

Organized religion is such a joke.

Fingers crossed it happens. A lot of good could come out of that.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby javy knows my name » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:28 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
OleMissCub wrote:So the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops is contemplating banning Biden from being able to receiving Holy Communion.

Organized religion is such a joke.

Fingers crossed it happens. A lot of good could come out of that.


Hear, hear. Time to lay their agenda bare, and challenge their tax exempt status
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:34 pm

javy knows my name wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
OleMissCub wrote:So the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops is contemplating banning Biden from being able to receiving Holy Communion.

Organized religion is such a joke.

Fingers crossed it happens. A lot of good could come out of that.


Hear, hear. Time to lay their agenda bare, and challenge their tax exempt status

I was raised Catholic and after my siblings moved out of her house, my Mom was still going to mass. The final straw for her was when the Colorado Springs arch-bishop threatened to deny communion to anyone voting for pro-choice candidates. I think you'd see a fair number of people jump ship (because the child molestation enabling wasn't enough to convince peeps, somehow) if they do the same to Biden. And yeah, the tax exemption discussion it would prompt would be an Overton-window-win.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:43 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
javy knows my name wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:Fingers crossed it happens. A lot of good could come out of that.


Hear, hear. Time to lay their agenda bare, and challenge their tax exempt status

I was raised Catholic and after my siblings moved out of her house, my Mom was still going to mass. The final straw for her was when the Colorado Springs arch-bishop threatened to deny communion to anyone voting for pro-choice candidates. I think you'd see a fair number of people jump ship (because the child molestation enabling wasn't enough to convince peeps, somehow) if they do the same to Biden. And yeah, the tax exemption discussion it would prompt would be an Overton-window-win.

Which makes me think it's just blustery talk. Make a point without making any decision thats too divisive. Like you said, whoever is still left has proven they'll swallow some pretty tough pills, but theres gonna be a line somewhere.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:54 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
javy knows my name wrote:
Hear, hear. Time to lay their agenda bare, and challenge their tax exempt status

I was raised Catholic and after my siblings moved out of her house, my Mom was still going to mass. The final straw for her was when the Colorado Springs arch-bishop threatened to deny communion to anyone voting for pro-choice candidates. I think you'd see a fair number of people jump ship (because the child molestation enabling wasn't enough to convince peeps, somehow) if they do the same to Biden. And yeah, the tax exemption discussion it would prompt would be an Overton-window-win.

Which makes me think it's just blustery talk. Make a point without making any decision thats too divisive. Like you said, whoever is still left has proven they'll swallow some pretty tough pills, but theres gonna be a line somewhere.

Right, its a long shot, but don't underestimate the Catholic church's ability to act with impunity. I would think it has as much to do with how much power the Jesuits have at that level than anything else.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:00 pm

This isn't the main point I don't want to be overly pedantic, but is there something that lays out how you would go about taxing churches(and the consequences, both intended and unintended)? I understand the intent but it seems like something that even if there was political will would be a particularly intractable problem in practice without causing a lot of unwanted collateral damage.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:01 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
javy knows my name wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:Fingers crossed it happens. A lot of good could come out of that.


Hear, hear. Time to lay their agenda bare, and challenge their tax exempt status

I was raised Catholic and after my siblings moved out of her house, my Mom was still going to mass. The final straw for her was when the Colorado Springs arch-bishop threatened to deny communion to anyone voting for pro-choice candidates. I think you'd see a fair number of people jump ship (because the child molestation enabling wasn't enough to convince peeps, somehow) if they do the same to Biden. And yeah, the tax exemption discussion it would prompt would be an Overton-window-win.

I left the church as soon as I left the house for college, so years before I even fully, consciously left the GOP bubble. My only regret is that I can't leave it again. Bunch of horsefeathering scumbags.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CubinNY » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:07 pm

Anyone else having a hard time containing their schadenfreude?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:12 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:This isn't the main point I don't want to be overly pedantic, but is there something that lays out how you would go about taxing churches(and the consequences, both intended and unintended)? I understand the intent but it seems like something that even if there was political will would be a particularly intractable problem in practice without causing a lot of unwanted collateral damage.

Yeah, that's why I said it would be nothing more than an Overton issue. At best, I think MAYBE we could wind up creating some concrete rules for what kind of political statements and actions a tax-exempt church could do and still maintain their tax-exemption...not to mention all of the hucksters out there just using it to bilk people and charitable systems.

Churches are getting to be a real danger for the future of the country. There is the obvious nightmare fuel that evangelicals provide to the political discourse, but just look at this pandemic. Its created a bunch of steepled virus-factories. Gathering together a bunch of superstitious, self-righteous, anti-reason rubes in one place and letting them enable each other is a bad recipe in any situation. If the churches and their leadership would have behaved better in responce to the pandemic I wouldn't be so flippantly negative, but here we are.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:17 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:This isn't the main point I don't want to be overly pedantic, but is there something that lays out how you would go about taxing churches(and the consequences, both intended and unintended)? I understand the intent but it seems like something that even if there was political will would be a particularly intractable problem in practice without causing a lot of unwanted collateral damage.

Yeah, that's why I said it would be nothing more than an Overton issue. At best, I think MAYBE we could wind up creating some concrete rules for what kind of political statements and actions a tax-exempt church could do and still maintain their tax-exemption...not to mention all of the hucksters out there just using it to bilk people and charitable systems.

Churches are getting to be a real danger for the future of the country. There is the obvious nightmare fuel that evangelicals provide to the political discourse, but just look at this pandemic. Its created a bunch of steepled virus-factories. Gathering together a bunch of superstitious, self-righteous, anti-reason rubes in one place and letting them enable each other is a bad recipe in any situation. If the churches and their leadership would have behaved better in responce to the pandemic I wouldn't be so flippantly negative, but here we are.

Is there actual evidence of churches specifically be super spreader communities. I only ask because I'm sure there's a lot of non religiously affiliated a holes being just as bad. And I may have too narrow of amtectodal evidence, but a lot of churches around here seem to have adapted towards social distancing. My parents church has been E-service the whole time. Obviously congregations vary quite a lot and Im just more generally liberal area outside Chicago... But more curious than anything.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:19 pm

Also as to churches being a real damger, religious participation keeps declining. I'd imagine the cult like atmospherr around Trumpism and the GOP has replaced much of the population who a generation ago would have been more religious. Very regional though, my view as Northern-Midwestern is generally less religious than the Bible belt.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CubinNY » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:21 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:This isn't the main point I don't want to be overly pedantic, but is there something that lays out how you would go about taxing churches(and the consequences, both intended and unintended)? I understand the intent but it seems like something that even if there was political will would be a particularly intractable problem in practice without causing a lot of unwanted collateral damage.

Yeah, that's why I said it would be nothing more than an Overton issue. At best, I think MAYBE we could wind up creating some concrete rules for what kind of political statements and actions a tax-exempt church could do and still maintain their tax-exemption...not to mention all of the hucksters out there just using it to bilk people and charitable systems.

Churches are getting to be a real danger for the future of the country. There is the obvious nightmare fuel that evangelicals provide to the political discourse, but just look at this pandemic. Its created a bunch of steepled virus-factories. Gathering together a bunch of superstitious, self-righteous, anti-reason rubes in one place and letting them enable each other is a bad recipe in any situation. If the churches and their leadership would have behaved better in responce to the pandemic I wouldn't be so flippantly negative, but here we are.

Americans are less "organized" religious every decade. They are turning people off to the Church. The last time my wife went to church was when she was in undergrad and the topic of the sermon or whatever they call it at The Church of Christ, was why women should be subservient to men. The issue is that the same people who frequently go to church also never miss a vote. If the people who didn't go to church voted in the same frequencies we wouldn't even be talking about this topic. So for me, the question is how to get people to vote and vote in their own best interests? After the New Deal Democrats started dying out in places like Iowa, Nebraska, and Kansas and the Democrats started touting the meritocracy and aligning with banking interests the people who use to vote Democrats stopped voting Democrat. The left doesn't have a wedge issue that they can all get behind, so it's God, guns, and gays while they steal everyone's money.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:22 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:This isn't the main point I don't want to be overly pedantic, but is there something that lays out how you would go about taxing churches(and the consequences, both intended and unintended)? I understand the intent but it seems like something that even if there was political will would be a particularly intractable problem in practice without causing a lot of unwanted collateral damage.

Yeah, that's why I said it would be nothing more than an Overton issue. At best, I think MAYBE we could wind up creating some concrete rules for what kind of political statements and actions a tax-exempt church could do and still maintain their tax-exemption...not to mention all of the hucksters out there just using it to bilk people and charitable systems.

Churches are getting to be a real danger for the future of the country. There is the obvious nightmare fuel that evangelicals provide to the political discourse, but just look at this pandemic. Its created a bunch of steepled virus-factories. Gathering together a bunch of superstitious, self-righteous, anti-reason rubes in one place and letting them enable each other is a bad recipe in any situation. If the churches and their leadership would have behaved better in responce to the pandemic I wouldn't be so flippantly negative, but here we are.

Is there actual evidence of churches specifically be super spreader communities. I only ask because I'm sure there's a lot of non religiously affiliated a holes being just as bad. And I may have too narrow of amtectodal evidence, but a lot of churches around here seem to have adapted towards social distancing. My parents church has been E-service the whole time. Obviously congregations vary quite a lot and Im just more generally liberal area outside Chicago... But more curious than anything.

https://www.google.com/search?q=church+super+spreader

(Sure, there are other offenders apart from churches, but Weinburg said it best: “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”)
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby minnesotacubsfan » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:22 pm

CyHawk_Cub wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
javy knows my name wrote:
Hear, hear. Time to lay their agenda bare, and challenge their tax exempt status

I was raised Catholic and after my siblings moved out of her house, my Mom was still going to mass. The final straw for her was when the Colorado Springs arch-bishop threatened to deny communion to anyone voting for pro-choice candidates. I think you'd see a fair number of people jump ship (because the child molestation enabling wasn't enough to convince peeps, somehow) if they do the same to Biden. And yeah, the tax exemption discussion it would prompt would be an Overton-window-win.

I left the church as soon as I left the house for college, so years before I even fully, consciously left the GOP bubble. My only regret is that I can't leave it again. Bunch of horsefeathering scumbags.

Yup, I'm also a recovering Cathoholic
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:23 pm

JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:This isn't the main point I don't want to be overly pedantic, but is there something that lays out how you would go about taxing churches(and the consequences, both intended and unintended)? I understand the intent but it seems like something that even if there was political will would be a particularly intractable problem in practice without causing a lot of unwanted collateral damage.

Yeah, that's why I said it would be nothing more than an Overton issue. At best, I think MAYBE we could wind up creating some concrete rules for what kind of political statements and actions a tax-exempt church could do and still maintain their tax-exemption...not to mention all of the hucksters out there just using it to bilk people and charitable systems.

Churches are getting to be a real danger for the future of the country. There is the obvious nightmare fuel that evangelicals provide to the political discourse, but just look at this pandemic. Its created a bunch of steepled virus-factories. Gathering together a bunch of superstitious, self-righteous, anti-reason rubes in one place and letting them enable each other is a bad recipe in any situation. If the churches and their leadership would have behaved better in responce to the pandemic I wouldn't be so flippantly negative, but here we are.


It's horsefeathering bad. I mentioned them before, but check out Patriot Prayer and try not to be creeped out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Prayer

It's an explicit melding of extremist religion, nationalism and white supremacy that is just growing bigger and bigger. It's the Ground Zero for QAnon, Blue Lives Matter, Proud Boy and anti-abortion/Born Again-types to all collide into one awful, furious, screaming mass.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby JudasIscariotTheBird » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:26 pm

CubinNY wrote:Americans are less "organized" religious every decade. They are turning people off to the Church.

And this is largely good, but dobule sided. There aren't as many moderates going to church to moderate the crazy at these congregations.

As for the wedge issue thing...wedging doesn't work as well for Democrats because compared to the Republicans they are a large tent. Democrats do need to lean into progressive positions that have popular appeal, which Dem national leadership is still often scared/unwilling to embrace, but I think that's a different issue.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:34 pm

WrigleyField 22 wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:This isn't the main point I don't want to be overly pedantic, but is there something that lays out how you would go about taxing churches(and the consequences, both intended and unintended)? I understand the intent but it seems like something that even if there was political will would be a particularly intractable problem in practice without causing a lot of unwanted collateral damage.

Yeah, that's why I said it would be nothing more than an Overton issue. At best, I think MAYBE we could wind up creating some concrete rules for what kind of political statements and actions a tax-exempt church could do and still maintain their tax-exemption...not to mention all of the hucksters out there just using it to bilk people and charitable systems.

Churches are getting to be a real danger for the future of the country. There is the obvious nightmare fuel that evangelicals provide to the political discourse, but just look at this pandemic. Its created a bunch of steepled virus-factories. Gathering together a bunch of superstitious, self-righteous, anti-reason rubes in one place and letting them enable each other is a bad recipe in any situation. If the churches and their leadership would have behaved better in responce to the pandemic I wouldn't be so flippantly negative, but here we are.

Is there actual evidence of churches specifically be super spreader communities.


Yes. Churches have actually been some of the clearest ways to track local outbreaks thanks to things like choir/singing groups having sky high infections rates from just spending, like, an hour singing together.
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Re: The Politics Thread

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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby javy knows my name » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:00 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:This isn't the main point I don't want to be overly pedantic, but is there something that lays out how you would go about taxing churches(and the consequences, both intended and unintended)? I understand the intent but it seems like something that even if there was political will would be a particularly intractable problem in practice without causing a lot of unwanted collateral damage.


I would think you would start by taxing the superchurches that are making >$1m a year and work your way down from there. Or just stop there
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby gflore34 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:03 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
WrigleyField 22 wrote:
JudasIscariotTheBird wrote:Yeah, that's why I said it would be nothing more than an Overton issue. At best, I think MAYBE we could wind up creating some concrete rules for what kind of political statements and actions a tax-exempt church could do and still maintain their tax-exemption...not to mention all of the hucksters out there just using it to bilk people and charitable systems.

Churches are getting to be a real danger for the future of the country. There is the obvious nightmare fuel that evangelicals provide to the political discourse, but just look at this pandemic. Its created a bunch of steepled virus-factories. Gathering together a bunch of superstitious, self-righteous, anti-reason rubes in one place and letting them enable each other is a bad recipe in any situation. If the churches and their leadership would have behaved better in responce to the pandemic I wouldn't be so flippantly negative, but here we are.

Is there actual evidence of churches specifically be super spreader communities.


Yes. Churches have actually been some of the clearest ways to track local outbreaks thanks to things like choir/singing groups having sky high infections rates from just spending, like, an hour singing together.


Denial of science is a big factor for whatever reason, some perfectly logic people will choose to revoke science on some issues and not others. To many the unseen evil, COVID, somehow cares about how much you pray.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CubinNY » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:12 pm

javy knows my name wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:This isn't the main point I don't want to be overly pedantic, but is there something that lays out how you would go about taxing churches(and the consequences, both intended and unintended)? I understand the intent but it seems like something that even if there was political will would be a particularly intractable problem in practice without causing a lot of unwanted collateral damage.


I would think you would start by taxing the superchurches that are making >$1m a year and work your way down from there. Or just stop there

There are about two dozen of those in Alabama alone.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:15 pm

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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:28 pm

javy knows my name wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:This isn't the main point I don't want to be overly pedantic, but is there something that lays out how you would go about taxing churches(and the consequences, both intended and unintended)? I understand the intent but it seems like something that even if there was political will would be a particularly intractable problem in practice without causing a lot of unwanted collateral damage.


I would think you would start by taxing the superchurches that are making >$1m a year and work your way down from there. Or just stop there


My guess is that is a ton of churches and possibly more than the picture in your head, but my question is less about defining that line and more about how you create a law that captures both the current and future filing state of those churches but also does not capture, say, the ACLU or Habitat for Humanity.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:37 pm

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