The Politics Thread

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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Cubfanintheknow » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:52 am

CubColtPacer wrote:
CubinNY wrote:What the horsefeathers is cancel culture anyway?


It's a hard thing to describe because it has different categories and different levels of cancelling. Here's a best stab at it:

You have current things being cancelled because they still persist today and are still considered racist at its core. These are things like:
Objectionable team sports names
Confederate Statues
Movies like Song of the South
You can even throw the books the Dr. Suess company stopped publishing in this category

A closely related category are brands that are changing because they either play into racial stereotypes or have associations with bad things:

Aunt Jemima
Mrs. Buttersworth
Eskimo Pie
Splash Mountain
etc.

Then you have people who are undergoing way more scrutiny than ever before because of social media. The latest example is the ESPN personality who was fired because she had posted and deleted some reprehensible things almost a decade ago.

Then you have things that are cancelled because they are attached to a toxic person. The easiest example is many places dropping Cosby Show reruns after the sexual assault allegations heated up and then were proven against Bill Cosby. There was nothing wrong about the Cosby Show itself, but since it was attached to a toxic person it left.

Finally, you have some attempting to cancel figures who have both terrible things and great things associated with them. For example, those who want to pull down Founding Fathers statues because of them being slaveowners.

And then of course you have a different category where people talk about getting cancelled as a direct result of a decision they just made. That's where many things this year come from: Hawley's book deal, MLB moving the All-Star game, people banning Coke, etc. It gathers up a lot of the oxygen, but it's way different than all the other categories.

When looking at that list, some of those things are obvious that they had to go, and some of those have a little more nuance to them. Some of those things that have nuance could have good discussions about when they should go/when they should not. But the most extreme voices on either side dominate the discussion, powerful voices have warped the concept in 50 different ways, and therefore that nuanced discussion is never going to happen.


"Cancel culture" is a phrase tossed around by people (namely conservative whites) who are used to deciding what's right or wrong and are mad that others are deciding what's right or wrong instead of them. They're used to making the rules for everyone else to abide by; if others are making the rules instead of them, they suddenly feel targeted and that their beliefs don't matter. horsefeathers 'em.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:05 am

I kinda feel bad for the people that think "cancel culture" is a specific, nefarious thing, or like it's some kind of fad or something that needs to go away (or even can). Like, they're living through the generational growing pains of an entire cultural shift of how people leave a footprint or identity in the world, big or small, and they acting like it's something like saggy pants or whatever the horsefeathers where they can shake their fist at it and eventually it'll be uncool.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:08 am

Like, how does one fully recognize and accept and utilize how completely different we communicate and interact and share information, and how that has completely reshaped the media and how we're connected and informed...and then simultaneously can't process how those gigantic shifts also completely impact how we can react to things? Like, it basically boils down to, "sorry, you just have to accept that some people horsefeathering suck." Why?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Banedon » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:39 pm

If you believe cancel culture is a thing, I'd be curious to know when it started? Was it before Pee Wee was dragged through the mud for jerking it in a movie theater? Was it before Monica Lewinsky basically had her life torn apart? Was it before Richard Nixon resigned? What about Jim Bakker?

Public shaming and consequences aren't new. The shape of it is different because what society accepts has changed, but it isn't new.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:43 pm

Banedon wrote:If you believe cancel culture is a thing, I'd be curious to know when it started? Was it before Pee Wee was dragged through the mud for jerking it in a movie theater? Was it before Monica Lewinsky basically had her life torn apart? Was it before Richard Nixon resigned? What about Jim Bakker?

Public shaming and consequences aren't new. The shape of it is different because what society accepts has changed, but it isn't new.


Yeah, there's a whole weird undercurrent of, "well, the masses can do it now in real time, so it's bad!"
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CubColtPacer » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:05 pm

Banedon wrote:If you believe cancel culture is a thing, I'd be curious to know when it started? Was it before Pee Wee was dragged through the mud for jerking it in a movie theater? Was it before Monica Lewinsky basically had her life torn apart? Was it before Richard Nixon resigned? What about Jim Bakker?

Public shaming and consequences aren't new. The shape of it is different because what society accepts has changed, but it isn't new.


All of those are examples of people getting cancelled because of actions they recently took. As I mentioned in my previous post, that's one small category of cancel culture that gets a lot of press because of powerful voices whining about being cancelled, but as you noted that has been around forever.

It's the other things that are mostly new. Not completely, but definitely way accelerated than ever before. And I'm not saying that as a bad thing. As I said in my last post, I agree with lots of those things. But some of them do bring up hard questions of how far to go, and certainly some have suggested ideas that are too far for most people.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:14 pm

CubColtPacer wrote:But some of them do bring up hard questions of how far to go, and certainly some have suggested ideas that are too far for most people.


Like what?

I mean, things like doxing/harassing/stalking/threats/etc. are pretty much almost always beyond the pale, but it seems like the "too far" arguments usually end up coming back to the idea that it's inherently wrong for someone to lose a job over being a horsefeathers head.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Derwood » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:16 pm

If anything, there isn't ENOUGH canceling of horsefeathers for being horsefeathers. If cancel culture was as real as the GQP claims, Greene, Gaetz, Boebert and their ilk would have lost their jobs and been scrubbed from public discourse forever
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CubColtPacer » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:27 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
CubColtPacer wrote:But some of them do bring up hard questions of how far to go, and certainly some have suggested ideas that are too far for most people.


Like what?

I mean, things like doxing/harassing/stalking/threats/etc. are pretty much almost always beyond the pale, but it seems like the "too far" arguments usually end up coming back to the idea that it's inherently wrong for someone to lose a job over being a horsefeathers head.


Everyone is going to have a slightly different line. For me, the drive by a few to take down statues of the Founding Fathers is too far. We can still celebrate them while acknowledging they did some terrible things as well.

It's not inherently wrong for someone to lose a job over something they did/said. It becomes harder the longer in the past it was. It becomes harder when it involves something they have already turned away from in the past. It becomes harder the younger they were when the offensive thing happened. Where's the line on that? I don't know, but right now it feels very binary when it's an issue that is full of nuance.

The Cosby show and things like that are a hard thing too. When we cancel someone (completely justifiably), do we automatically cancel anything they were ever associated with either? Possibly, but that gets into grey areas.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:03 pm

CubColtPacer wrote:Everyone is going to have a slightly different line. For me, the drive by a few to take down statues of the Founding Fathers is too far. We can still celebrate them while acknowledging they did some terrible things as well.


I mean, I think the larger question is why do all of them need to be "celebrated" in the first place? The "cancelling" is arguably a response to how figures out this have been unduly and unnecessary propped up as larger than life heroes or figures that need to be celebrated, as opposed to simply being a part of history where we actually gauge the good and the bad. When the scale has been imbalanced so much for so long, the onus still is put on the people pushing back to be the "fair & balanced," nuanced ones, which seems way off, IMO.

It's not inherently wrong for someone to lose a job over something they did/said. It becomes harder the longer in the past it was. It becomes harder when it involves something they have already turned away from in the past. It becomes harder the younger they were when the offensive thing happened. Where's the line on that? I don't know, but right now it feels very binary when it's an issue that is full of nuance.


This still seems to operate under the idea that the person who did the horsefeathers people are pissed off about are the ones that deserve the most compassion/care in this equation. It always seems to come back to seem weird idea like people in these situations are obligated to some kind of trial or tribunal system that simply doesn't exist. If enough of the public is responding negatively, typically via the same platform these people themselves used or use, then why is anyone obligated to allow these people to remain in front-facing positions of privileged or power? Like, the tone is almost with the idea that this is somehow getting people working for grocery stores or as electricians or plumbers fired and shunned, but that's simply not what happens.

And the whole, "it was the past/they were younger thing" always tried to leave out the aspect that people would have or did think what they was wrong back then, too. It's framed as if it was this blameless thing at the time, where everyone was oblivious to how opinions would change over time, and that's almost never the case. Like, even in a rare case where I do agree that on a superficial level people "overracted" (as much as you can when the person on the receiving end has been rich and powerful literally their entire life), like Ellie Kemper = "KKK princess," you still had people acting like a 19-year old is some kind of brainless zygote that can't possible comprehend anything. I mean, high school activist-types have been a horsefeathering cliche FOREVER, so the fallback defense of, "how could she have POSSIBLY known, she was just a BABY!!!" is just flat out false. Yeah, she's not some ridiculous "KKK princess," but people being pissed off that this born rich person was just all-in on being propped up and pampered by ridiculous institutions that are essentially bragging about the dominance of white supremacy DOES make sense. Like, as much as much as people want to pretend that she's "just like everyone else," she's NOT, or just seem ready spout, "but clearly she's horsefeathering changed" just because she's been on some TV shows is glossing over a LOT. So, yeah, expecting nuance along the lines of, "wow, that's a pretty horsefeathers thing, and it sucks she's basically the walking, breathing epitome of the white supremacy power structure," great, but dismissing just as "she was a kid; she had no idea!" isn't, and the latter is what the nuance people seemingly always want some version of.

The Cosby show and things like that are a hard thing too. When we cancel someone (completely justifiably), do we automatically cancel anything they were ever associated with either? Possibly, but that gets into grey areas.


This is seemingly making up something that isn't happening. We live in an era where EVERYTHING is more available than ever before. We couldn't remove The Cosby Show from the world even if we wanted to.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Banedon » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:26 pm

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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby sneakypower » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:54 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:("What's next" is rhetorical anyway; it was already Harris torpedoing herself in the foot down in Guatemala)

Spoiler: show
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:53 pm

sneakypower wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:("What's next" is rhetorical anyway; it was already Harris torpedoing herself in the foot down in Guatemala)

Spoiler: show


The hits just keep coming:

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/09/propubl ... -says.html

Attorney General Garland vows billionaire tax leak to ProPublica will be ‘top of my list’ to investigate
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby sneakypower » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:15 pm

hey remember the journalist that released the Panama Papers, who later died in a car bomb somehow, wonder what was up with that
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Derwood » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:21 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
sneakypower wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:("What's next" is rhetorical anyway; it was already Harris torpedoing herself in the foot down in Guatemala)

Spoiler: show


The hits just keep coming:

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/09/propubl ... -says.html

Attorney General Garland vows billionaire tax leak to ProPublica will be ‘top of my list’ to investigate


Yuuuup. When the AG is more concerned with the leak than the contents of the leak, you know you’re horsefeathers
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby WrigleyField 22 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:03 pm

sneakypower wrote:hey remember the journalist that released the Panama Papers, who later died in a car bomb somehow, wonder what was up with that

They were cancelled.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:39 pm

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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:02 pm

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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:28 pm

CyHawk_Cub wrote:


Breyer needs to horsefeathering retire his ass NOW.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CyHawk_Cub » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:40 pm

Can't be true. I've been told repeatedly that partisanship is some recent thing, with both sides being equally at fault.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:40 pm

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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby CubinNY » Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:06 pm

Great thread

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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Sammy Sofa » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:56 pm

Tim Wise still rules.

Piggybacking off of the doofus tweet in the Ricketts thread....the Republicans have arguably already won the CRT debate, IMO. CRT is a largely nebulous thing that has been a part of curriculums for decades now. Something like the 1619 Project is a very specific, very seperate thing than the broader concept of CRT, which fits into a whole wide variety of educational fields of study.

But the conservatives have done their usual thing of taking a positive term or name, and acting like it's some kind of boiled down, singular thing that they can turn into a negative epithet.

Throw "critical race theory" on to the pile with the following:

progressive
liberal
social justice
politically correct
feminism
antifa
ally
woke
defund the police
etc., etc., etc..

The liberal defenders of CRT don't even know what the horsefeathers they're defending at this point because of them are thinking they're supporting singular initiatives like the 1619 Project, but the Right as already framed it so that horsefeathering ANYTHING that focus on non-white aspects of history, or is even the slightest bit critical of "white history," is CRT. That's the trap; they co-opted an existing term and twisted it into something it's not. They've successfully weaponized it as something it isn't.

Here's a much version of that take than I could put it:

But here’s the trap. Conservative Ops and the propagandists causing the hysteria at Fox News are deliberately trying to co-opt the phrase “critical race theory”. They’re pushing falsehoods about it claiming it purposely values one race over the other and other nonsense. They then label any pursuit of a broadening understanding of historical events as “CRT”. Lessons on how slavery started in North America? That’s CRT. Lessons about Southern efforts to quash Reconstruction? That’s CRT. Comparing the language of Jim Crow laws to voting rights bills today? That’s most definitely a giant CRT. Economic issues that even remotely question the status quo? Why that’s also CRT straight from Karl Marx. It’s intentional. They’re taking an obscure graduate level discourse because they know most of the population hasn’t heard of it so you can fill that mystery box with just about anything. And the audience they’re targeting damn sure isn’t going to look up the actual academic books, papers, seminars, etc to get a better understanding of what it is. It’s a political agenda being set up for 2022 and beyond. They’re creating a fabricated boogeyman out of a shadow knowing most of the populous just sees the shadow. If you elect them, they can conquer the boogeyman. Anyone else trying to add light to show its just a shadow is the enemy destroying America.
Last edited by Sammy Sofa on Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Brian » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:05 pm

this guy's presidential campaign is going to be such a train wreck

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Re: The Politics Thread

Postby Derwood » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:22 pm

“He wants us to hit leftists with pipes?”
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